Kicks, Penalties, and Possessions
After Cody's second block last night, when the announcers were yammering on about him taking his helmet off, I assumed that everyone who knew anything about football would recognize that taking one's helmet off is a foul like "excessive celebration:" no matter when it happens, it's the penalty enforced on the next. Play.
As it turns out, lots and lots of Tennessee fans don't really know the rules of football.
"If a play's still going, you can't take your helmet off," Kiffin said. "A guy throws his helmet as the ball's still live. He throws his helmet and then two of their guys go and recover the ball. It's a 15-yard penalty, and you kick again."
Now, it should come as no surprise that Kiffin has no idea what the rules are of the game he's coaching. It's not the first time.
But, seeing all of these people come out of the woodwork to talk about "re-kicks" and other silly things has frustrated me to no end. Allow me to explain how football works, not for the benefit of our readers, most of whom have been on top of this all from the very moment of the block, but for other fans who might need a refresher:
The Helmet Rule
First, understand that removing your helmet while on the field of play is expressly against the rules. Rule 9-2-1:
Unsportsmanlike Acts
ARTICLE 1. There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct or any act that interferes with orderly game administration on the part of players, substitutes, coaches, authorized attendants or any other persons subject to the rules, before the game, during the game or between periods. a. Specifically prohibited acts and conduct include: 1. No player, substitute, coach or other person subject to the rules shall use abusive, threatening or obscene language or gestures, or engage in such acts that provoke ill will or are demeaning to an opponent, to game officials or to the image of the game, including but not limited to:. . .
(f) Removal of a player’s helmet before he is in the team area (Exceptions: Team, media or injury timeouts; equipment adjustment; through play; between periods; and during a measurement for a first down).. . .
If committed while the ball is alive, these fouls are treated as dead-ball fouls.
PENALTY — Dead-ball foul or live-ball foul treated as dead-ball foul. 15 yards [S7 and S27] from the succeeding spot. Flagrant offenders, if players or substitutes, shall be disqualified [S47]. If a player or an identified squad member in uniform commits two unsportsmanlike fouls in the same game, he shall be disqualified.
Essentially what that means is that dead ball fouls are marked off on the NEXT play and do not ever result in a "re-do" of the play on which they occurred, despite what Lane Kiffin may believe.
But Tennessee could've recovered the ball!
Well, no. No they couldn't have. A scrimmage kick (A.K.A. Field Goal) is a live ball, recoverable by either team, only until it crosses the neutral zone. At that point, the kicking team can only recover the ball once it has been touched by the defending team. Further, if a scrimmage kick touches goes beyond the neutral zone its character changes. From that point forward, the ball is unrecoverable by the kicking team unless it goes on to touch a player on the defending team. To be clear, the initial block would not count toward this. It would need to be touched again. Further, it would need to be touched before it touched the ground beyond the neutral zone. (See update #2 below for correction)
Rule 2-15-1-b states: "Any free kick or scrimmage kick continues to be a kick until it is caught or recovered by a player or becomes dead."
Rule 4-3-h states that the ball becomes dead "when a return kick or scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone is made." While this might seem to imply that the ball was kicked from beyond the neutral zone, what it really means is that the scrimmage kick (the ball that has been kicked) has crossed the neutral zone and touched something on the other side. (See update #2 below for correction)
Rule 5-4 discusses the "continuity of downs" and says that the continuity is broken in a number of circumstances like the expiration of the half or game, a change of possession during the play, failing to convert a fourth down, and so on. In other words, no matter what down it was, after one of these things, the next down is first down. In many cases, this means a change of possession. One such occurrence that breaks the continuity of downs is: "(b). A scrimmage kick crosses the neutral zone."
In short: when the ball was hit by Cody it was live and could have been recovered by either team . . . until it rolled past the neutral zone, at which point it was dead by rule (See update #2 below) it was only recoverable by Alabama. Julio Jones tracked the ball down and covered it up. At that point, the play was over and Alabama received possession.
Update #1: bobo_the_vol suggests that the mere act of the ball crossing the Neutral Zone didn't result in a dead ball, so there's at least that debatable point, but remember that in order for that to matter a 'Bama player would still have to touch it after it crossed the NZ but before a Tennessee player did.
Update #2: After spending a few hours last night poking around the NCAA football rule book, I see what bobo_the_vol was trying to say, and I now agree with him. My initial interpretations of a few different clauses in the rule book were incorrect. Upon further reading, Rule 4-3-h means exactly what I said it did not mean (oops). The rule that I was leaning on to provide that interpretation, after another few reads through, doesn't support my assertion as I thought it did. As a result, the initial post was incorrect: the ball was not dead before Julio fell on it. As far as this particular play is concerned, it's a distinction with no difference as the ball was never bobbled around and there wasn't a Tennessee player anywhere in the vicinity of it when Julio touched it, so the final conclusion of this post is still valid. Regardless, I regret the error and appreciate bobo_the_vol taking the time to educate my stubborn self .
But what if Tennessee got the ball before it crossed the neutral zone?
Someone arguing this is probably alluding to the rule that the game can't end on a defensive penalty. The problem is that that simple statement of the rule is not entirely correct. A more accurate portrayal of the rule is that the game can't end on a live ball foul. Rule 3-3 controls here:
Extension of Periods
ARTICLE 3. A period shall be extended until a down (other than a try), free from live-ball fouls not penalized as dead-ball fouls, has been played when:
a. A penalty is accepted for a live-ball foul(s) not penalized as a dead-ball foul that occurs during a down in which time expires (Exception: Rule 10-2-2-g-1) (A.R. 3-2-3-I-VIII).
b. Offsetting fouls occur during a down in which time expires.
c. An inadvertent whistle is sounded or an official signals the ball dead during a down in which time expires.
Live-ball fouls that are penalized as dead-ball fouls do not extend the game. So even if Tennessee had recovered that kick, the game would still have been over because the game is not extended by fouls that are treated like dead-ball fouls.
So what you're saying is that there's no way that Cody taking his helmet off could have given Tennessee another shot to win the game?
Exactly.
4 recs |
174 comments
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Comments
Um..
Boom Roasted!
Scoring against Alabama will be like birthing a child: rare, painful, and messy. - The Ghost of Jay Cutler
by bammer on Oct 26, 2009 1:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Kiffin just got told by Slive
One more statement like that and he gets suspended.
Fumbles. It was always Fumbles
by DocFumbles on Oct 26, 2009 1:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As much as Slive is trying to curtail this
I think most of us can admit that the play-calling in the SEC has been horrendous. I mean, we’ve already had a crew suspended for crappy calls, haven’t we? Slive should focus more on getting competent officials, then comments like what Lane made would seem far more out-of-there.
And I’m not defending what Kiffin is saying: the refs did not lose this game for Tennessee, and he probably shouldn’t be so openly critical of the conference office.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Slive's point is to express concern via the front office, not air dirty laundry
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Oct 26, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree with that
Do any of us think that anything will be changed with the officiating if the fans don’t hear about it, which they won’t if the SEC shuffles it off to a back-alley?
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think those officials would have been suspended whether Petrino
said anything out loud or not.
by jsholt969 on Oct 26, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not so sure
When you don’t bring public attention to some bad officiating, you risk it getting much, much worse. While I agree with the reprimand, I also am okay with coaches bringing attention to bad officiating, like Dan Mullen did in the MSU-UF game.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right, but I think I still agree with Slive's reprimand, because
Kiffin needs to learn the rules on that play before he talks like that in a PC.
by jsholt969 on Oct 26, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I don’t think the ’Bama – UT game was anything like the Arkansas – Florida game, or the missed call on the UF INT-TD return against Mississippi State.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bingo!
And Kiffin, being the youngin’ that he is, can’t bite his tongue. What he should do is, NOT say the first thing outta his pie-hole and consult with others before he starts claiming skullduggery on the part of others. (see: when he first got hired as TN coach. Namely: Saban & Meyer. later- at the SEC pre-season media days- calling out the venerable Ol’ Ball Coach). Now, as much as I dislike Meyer and to some extent- Spurrier- they got years of head coaching experience and WINS on their palmares. Kiffin, still- ain’t got jack as a head coach of anything!
"As for being a Raiders fan, I wouldn't wish that fucking shit on anybody." [the venerable OTS at Roll Bama Roll}
by BixBeiderbecke on Oct 27, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you know the SECs policy on officiating QC? I sure don't
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Oct 26, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
There still should have been a flag thrown, right? ;-)
Really, what Kiffin was more mad about was the flag ratio: Tennessee has been a very disciplined team all year as far as penalties go, and he thought some should have gone the other way. And, to be honest, I agree that some flags should have been called on Alabama that weren’t, and there were some flags that could/should have been called on Tennessee, and weren’t. The refs didn’t lose this game for Tennessee.
For the record: the “no-call” on Julio Jones in the endzone was the correct call.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 1:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
How so?
Julio was running at full speed when he got slammed by the defender. The DB jumped and got a hand on the ball, so it was clearly catchable. How is that not PI?
by rugman11 on Oct 26, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he had no chance to catch that ball, he ran a stop-fade, on a fade throw.
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Oct 26, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Jones didn’t get “slammed” by him.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fact the we were throwing the ball
had me wondering.
by CousinEddie on Oct 26, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fact that you were throwing the ball
Had me wondering how the hell you pay Nick Saban 4 million big ones a year, personally. He might deserve it, but for allowing that playcalling? Though, Nick doesn’t call ya’lls offensive plays — who is the Offensive Coordinator for Bama?
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
by kleph on Oct 26, 2009 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go home
Seriously. If you don’t think your guy pushed off, you need to re-watch the game. That was easily the worst call of the game.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Because him stopping and looking for the ball 5 yards shorter than where the ball was being thrown obviously has no impact on the call, right?
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He stopped because he was pushed. If your guy got his hand on the ball, Julio could have, too. The push off not only kept him from getting a few yards deeper but also kept him from jumping to make a play.
Do you people even watch the game?
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did
And I saw Jones stopping, not bothering to jump, looking for the ball behind him rather than ahead of him.
On second-down, Jones ran a fade route. On third down he ran a fade-stop, hoping to catch the defender out of position. If McElroy had thrown the ball to the route Jones ran, it would have been a TD. But there was a miscommunication, and the ball sailed.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
“The ball sailed” … and was then nearly caught by the guy who pushed off of jones, forcing him to stop his route. Seriously. Go watch it again with the Orange shades off.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because the guy who "pushed off"
Was watching where the ball was actually going, not expecting it somewhere else like Jones was.
Besides, are you trying to tell me that a tap by a smaller defender is enough to stop Julio Jones in his tracks, completely? Puh-lease.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look, you’re just wrong here. I know you wish you were right, but you’re not.
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/6325/interference3.jpg
Jones is looking back for the ball as your thug dbs decided he was going to get his ass handed to him if he didn’t cheat.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's pretty obvious that the "stop" that bobo is talking about
is Julio planting his feet in order to jump. He just wasn’t give the chance to jump because the DB hit him.
by rugman11 on Oct 26, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
He was reading the ball, still moving backwards but about to plant and jump for the ball.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do YOU mean "YOU" people?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Oct 27, 2009 12:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do YOU mean "YOU" PEOPLE?
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Oct 27, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's amazing to me
is the fact that all that flashed through Cody’s mind BEFORE he took the helment off, and he knew very well that there was no way of hurting the team by doing it.
All fun aside, I loves me some Cody, but that was a pretty stupid thing to do, and here’s hoping he never does it again his career, ala Dwayne Rudd
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant
by NJBammer on Oct 26, 2009 1:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Is Cody
A senior? Please tell me that he is.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a joke I'm not getting?
Cody, a JUCO transfer, is a senior this year.
by Tidelander on Oct 26, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank god.
I’m just happy he’ll be in the NFL next year, and was feeling too lazy to go check his year.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Cody's lazy,
what in the world does that make the Vols?
I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR
by SugarBowl93 on Oct 26, 2009 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
…he’s saying he was feeling too lazy to check, not that Cody is lazy….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Oct 26, 2009 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeaup.
Dude can probably run faster than me and outweighs me by, like, 240 pounds.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 27, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops...my bad.
I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR
by SugarBowl93 on Oct 27, 2009 12:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless of the issues (we recovered, the ball was past the neutral zone, time expired)
Cody’s helmet didn’t come off until the clock was at 0:00. No flag was thrown because the game was over. The refs didn’t miss a call.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 2:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
They didn't miss "that" call
I watched the replay over and over again yesterday. As the clock goes from 1 second to 0 Cody’s hand is on the facemask. It doesn’t pop off until the clock is at 0:00.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand
How there’s no call on that when the play was going on. The game isn’t over when the clock hits 0, it’s over when the play ends and the clock show 0:00. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but if there was, say, a late hit on that play, or a facemask, or any other penalty after the clock hit 0 but before the ball was recovered, those would be called, yes?
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For a guy who seems so intent on proving there was a foul...
This seems like a contradictory statement…
“BUT that said, as CrimsonWraith said, yeah I’m glad the refs didn’t pull the flag out on Cody. He was a guy celebrating an awesome play against a rival, let the big boy celebrate. Besides, I don’t want to be the ref to throw a flag on Mount Cody ;-). Helluva play by him, and as much as part of my wants that flag thrown and UT won, the bigger part of me is glad it wasn’t.”
bob_the_vol
"Behind every argument is someone's ignorance." - Louis Brandeis
by franchizeplaya on Oct 26, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
I’m just trying to get an understanding of the rules. I understand that because ‘Bama recovered the ball, there wouldn’t have been a next play, but I don’t understand how there wasn’t a foul there just because the clock had expired, even though the play was still going on.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The play wasn't still going on
The helmet came off after the ball had gone across the line of scrimmage and the refs had waved it off. Julio hopped on it as time expired, as Cody took his lid off.
Even the head of SEC officiating has said that UT would not have retained possession or had the opportunity to re-kick. It’s a non-issue. UT wasn’t cheated. Kiffin is wrong. Even if the flag had been thrown on Cody, it doesn’t matter.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please stop advancing this incorrect argument. The clock hitting 00:00 doesn’t end the game.
If Cody had committed a live-ball foul after the block but before the ball was dead by rule, they’d have gotten another kick REGARDLESS of whether or not the clock had hit 00:00.
The fact that there was no time left on the clock doesn’t mean that no infraction took place.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not the main argument, and doesn’t even matter. The argument is that it’s a successive play foul, and it was a dead-ball.
by squinky86 on Oct 26, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know 0:00 doesn't end the game
but the ball didn’t go backwards (behind the line) so my thinking is that it was not live and that the officials had ended the play (which is why no one went to see if Bama would pounce on the football and recover it). I think the officials had whistled the game over.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you’re saying that you think the football actually traveled through Terrence Cody’s arm?
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying that the ref
ended the play which coincided with the end of the game and change of possession.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's
not what you have been saying, lol
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said
That Tennessee was cheated, or that Kiffin was right :-)
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s really simple.
The penalty for a dead-ball foul is enforced on the next play.
There was no next play and, therefore, no reason to throw a flag. Whether or not what he did was against the rules is irrelevant if the penalty for the infraction can’t be enforced.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he'd wanted to
send 93ish thousand fans (plus us TV viewers) into temporary cardiac arrest and be run out of town on a rail, then yes, there was a reason to throw a flag, then pick it up and explain that it was irrelevant, but other than that, you’re right!
I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR
by SugarBowl93 on Oct 26, 2009 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those penalties you mentioned are defensive penalties
The ball went past the line of scrimmage, therefore it was no longer Tennessee’s ball. Therefore Alabama was on offense, just like a punt return. The quarter/half/game can’t end on a defensive penalty. But it would not have been a defensive penalty.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While it might have been extreme unlikely, Tennessee could have gotten the ball if, as Pete said
the ball is unrecoverable by the kicking team unless it goes on to touch a player on the defending team.If the ball hit Cody, then got hit by, say, Julio Jones, the ball could have been recovered and advanced by the Vols. That neither of these things happened means that, in hindsight, the flag didn’t matter at all, but it didn’t change the point that a flag should have been thrown, correct?
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point
To quote VolBrian from RTT:
The point being, the ref never threw the flag at all, so that situation never had a chance to play out. I would like to think that was what Kiffin was trying to point out. More likely though, Kiffin wan’t quite sure on the actual rule when he made an unfortunate comment in a heated situation after a heartbreaking loss.
But I’m STILL saying that the flag shouldn’t have been thrown, not because it wasn’t a breaking of the rule, but that the rule is stupid. I’d like to again point out that I’m not arguing this out of bitterness, but just trying to discuss this somewhat strange instance of football.
I think we can all agree that:
- A flag should have been thrown, according to the rules
- It wouldn’t have mattered, Bama still won
- Screw the rules against excessive celebration, players should be allowed to celebrate after a great play, as long as they aren’t trying to pointedly humiliate another player.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
VolBrian is giving Kiffin WAAAAYYY too much credit
by jsholt969 on Oct 26, 2009 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's been kind of a theme with their fanbase this season.
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
by kleph on Oct 26, 2009 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, apparently
Everyone else who has watched every Tennessee game.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 27, 2009 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
Once the ball touched the first blade of grass on the other side of the NZ, the play was over.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Negative
If Bama had picked it up and tried to return it, and then fumbled…
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read. The. Rules. As soon as the ball touches the ground past the NZ, the play is dead. In order to return the kick, the defending team has to touch it before it touches the ground.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uhh..
So what you are saying is that whenever a “return kick or scrimmage kick” touches the ground on the other side of the neutral zone, it becomes dead? Funny, seems that catching a punt off of a bounce is against the rules, and refs have been missing that one for a long, long time.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, let’s assume, just for the sake of argument, that nowhere in the NCAA rulebook does it differentiate between a punt and a place kick (ha) . . . what’s your point?
There wasn’t a single vol who even moved toward the blocked kick. The only Vol within 5 yards of that ball was laying on the ground, not paying any attention to what was going on. Lincoln and the holder both ran AWAY from the play.
So even if you’re right that there was a way for UT to get the ball back, who was going to get it? I guess Julio could have picked it up, called Lincoln back, and tossed it to him?
You’re so far beyond reality and things that actually happened that even if you’re right about this (which I still do not think you are), it’s completely irrelevant.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Tennessee was going to get the ball back
I was just playing the what if game. I’ve seen players pick the ball up and run with it after blocking the final field goal and there is always the risk of fumbling, the other team recovering, and scoring a touchdown. If Alabama had picked the ball up, tried to run it back for a score, fumbled, Tennessee recovered, and didn’t score a touchdown then taking the helmet off would give Tennessee +15 yards and a free play, would it not?
And, yeah, that is far fetched at the closest, and it’s obviously not what happened (smart players don’t try highlights with no time left, and Jones was a smart player on that play) but it is what could have happened at the time the flag should have been thrown.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
touchdown then taking the helmet off would give Tennessee +15 yards and a free play, would it not?
No. Because there were no live-ball fouls, Tennessee had to score on that play. Even if they recovered the ball, the foul was irrelevant because it’s a dead-ball foul and dead-ball fouls don’t extend the game the way a live-ball foul on the defense would.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don’t get how the rules explain away an excessive celebration call while the play is going on as a dead-ball foul, but strangely enough it does. So, fair point.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, they’ve been talking about changing that, but it’s the same reason that high-stepping into the end-zone doesn’t negate the touchdown.
Frankly, I think a lot of these “unsportsmanlike” rules are bullshit.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, yeah
I hadn’t thought about that. And I agree, like I’ve said as long as you aren’t doing something to blatantly humiliate a player from the opposing team, it shouldn’t be excessive celebration. Especially on an amazing play: it’s hardly excessive if it’s an awesome play, right?
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh. Yeah — “Excessive” is such, like, a relative term, man. Like, what does it even mean.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
So I read the rules, and came to find that you seem to have completely misunderstood the rules. Allow me to first put the rules in section 4-3 in their entirety:
e. When a player of the kicking team catches or recovers any free kick or a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone (A.R. 4-1-3-II).Now then, you say that
f. When a free kick, scrimmage kick or any other loose ball comes to rest and no player attempts to secure it.
g. When a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone or a free kick is caught or recovered by any player after a valid or invalid fair-catch signal; or when an invalid fair-catch signal is made after a catch or recovery by Team B (Rules 2-7-1, 2-7-2 and 2-7-3).
h. When a return kick or scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone is
made.
While this might seem to imply that the ball was kicked from beyond the neutral zone, what it really means is that the scrimmage kick (the ball that has been kicked) has crossed the neutral zone and touched something on the other side.I’d have to say that what you say the rules imply is exactly what the rules mean. Quite clearly, the ball is not dead the second the ball lands past the neutral zone.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although
I’m not sure that the ball could be advanced by Alabama, which might have been your point.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
With seconds remaining on the clock
the ball could either be downed or picked up and fumbled. There were no seconds remaining.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you're getting the point
That the game isn’t over at 0:00 if there is still a play going on.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The game is over when the clock is at zero
and the blocked kick has passed over the neutral zone and the officials have waved and whistled it over.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That
Is incorrect, except for “[when] the officials have waved and whistled it over.”
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
…I feel for ya, bobo, that this is all you have to hang your hat on right now, but get over it, man. This is inane, trivial, counterproductive speculation at its worst, and you seem like you might just be better than that. Let. It. Go.
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Oct 26, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
analyzing minute details about the exact timing
of something (whether the ref blew the whistle or waved the play over before this or that happened) is impossible at this point (and pointless) and since the game is over and no call was made, we need to accept the ruling on the field. Cody’s helmet came off at 0:00. As far as I’m concerned, the refs had ended the game so Cody should not have been flagged for anything.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is just silly.
“As far as you’re concerned” is not the same thing as “what actually happened.”
If we’re talking about what should have happened, penalties fouls should be called when they occur and the enforcement of the penalties is possible.
So, no Cody shouldn’t have, but not because the time ran out.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did the officials end the play?
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'm probably the only person
on here who thinks that Cody’s helmet came off after the play had been whistled over and waved off.
Thank you for telling me repeatedly that the quarter isn’t over when the clock hits 0:00.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that if you actually watch the replay, you can see that the helmet comes off before the ball has stopped rolling around in the backfield. If the officials had blown it dead before Cody’s helmet came off, they blew it dead incorrectly.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they did blow it dead incorrectly
we can’t hear anything, but the way the players react suggests (in my estimation) that the play was whistled over by the officials. They stopped moving and starting looking around. No one except two of our guys moved toward the ball, and even they did so hesitantly. I think the officials ended it. That’s just judging it from the players’ reaction.
Again, that’s just my take. “As far as I’m concerned”. Don’t take it as fact.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
If the officials blew the play dead early, there’s supposed to be one more play, or something. Silly rulebook. But that’s not what happened, lol. The players were just trying to find the ball, which usually goes backwards.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watched the clip again
and the official behind the kicker starts signaling after the block. It looks like his whistle in his mouth and that could mean that he’s blowing it. At the same time, the back judge and line judge are watching the ball, signaling nothing else. No one was watching Cody or the Alabama sideline (which emptied). Not to say it’s a moot point, but I think they would have been more likely to be on the lookout for something like Cody’s helmet if there had been twenty seconds remaining instead of 0:00. But the stadium exploded when the kick was blocked, time expired, and both sidelines emptied. I guess it’s similar to a player hitting a homerun to win a game and failing to touch one of the bases (a la Robin Ventura in the 2000 NLCS).
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re really, really reaching here. The play wasn’t over when he took his helmet off. If you have to dig through film and call up NCIS to find out if there was a whistle in one ref’s mouth, you’ve pretty much lost whatever credibility you had on the issue, to say nothing of the fact that your argument has morphed more times than Michael Jackson.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus
Why are you such an asshole? What the F is your problem? This is not a big issue. This has nothing to do with credibility, intelligence, character, football knowledge, or anything anyone would value. FOR ME, this has never been more than a friendly discussion of whether or not Cody committed a penalty. I didn’t think he did. We’re talking about a play where a lot of things happen simultaneously, where even the refs are just as confused and shocked as the players. My argument has not morphed because I’ve looked at this from the POV that the play ended when the officials ended it.
Fuck you, Pete. You’re such an unbelievable asshole. I’m not even someone who starts stuff with people, but your smarmy, pedantic nature that rubs shit in people’s faces is obnoxious and worthy of an assbeating. Fuck off.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 27, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry.
I just don’t like our fans looking like dipshits trying to argue that the game ends when the clock hits zero like they’ve never seen a football game before.
You’ll have less trouble if you pull your head out of your ass and think before you stay stupid shit like “Cody’s helmet didn’t come off until the clock was at 0:00.”
You know better than that.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck you, Pete
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 27, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fact that an asshole
like you is affiliated with the University of Alabama is sad because you are an angry, unhappy little bitch.
If I ever see you in public I’ll be happy to come introduce myself. You talk so much bullshit without worrying about being rude and condescending. You get severely upset at a discussion about FOOTBALL—a game you were probably too big of a pussy to play at any level—and you insult people. Well, fuck you, bitch.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 27, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One would think for someone who played at the level you did, you’d know the rules a little better.
But, yeah, you’re right. I’m the one who’s upset in this discussion. I’m the one who went all internet tough guy and started throwing around “fuck yous” instead of either making valid point or admitting that I was wrong.
Grow up.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pete, I’d tell you every bit of this in person. You need to grow up for getting so pissed off in the first place. Yeah, I’m hot now because you’ve repeatedly used such a bitchy tone in your responses to me and I’d read enough. But the thing is, you’re such a dick that you don’t realize it. You’re choice of words, long before I replied with the fuck yous and everything else, was condescending (as usual). Your writing always has a condescending ‘My God! These imbeciles infuriate me with their stupidity!’ tone. It’s obnoxious.
Do you have a lot of friends, Pete? Do you have a wife? Do you have anger issues?
For example, I never stated that a quarter ends at 0:00, because a defensive penalty will extend the quarter. What I said (or tried to indicate) was that the game had ended by virtue of both the officials whistle/gestures and expiration of the clock. The reason is that football players play to the whistle, not the clock. In this particular game, my opinion about Cody was predicated on the following:
1. Possession had changed
2. Cody’s helmet came off simultaneously with/or after the clock had expired and possession had changed. Since this occurred at the moment Alabama was no longer on defense, which was also the exact moment the game ended, I didn’t think he should be flagged. They might as well call a sideline infraction for our players and coaches being on the field also. Again, that’s not some blind homer disagreeing to disagree, there’s logic (in my opinion) behind it.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 27, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing I find amusing is how any time someone gets mad at me, they assume I’m upset. Nothing on this site has ever made me mad. It’s just not worth it. But, sure, if it makes you feel better to think that I’m really bent out of shape, go nuts.
Still, let’s pretend for a moment that you had the class not to resort to personal attacks. We’ll just ignore them.
Your argument still makes no sense at all.
You claim that you “said or tried to say” that the ref had ended the play. Of course, it took how many comments before you went back and supposedly found in the replay an official that you think looks like he might be possibly thinking about starting to blow his whistle? (while admitting that none of the other officials have)
Still, you keep going back to the clock expiring as if that has anything to do with this particular issue, which it does not. Even if there were 30 seconds left on the clock, Tennessee STILL wouldn’t have gotten to re-kick. Even if Tennessee had retained possession, they still wouldn’t have gotten a re-kick.
The only thing that matters is that removing the helmet is treated like a dead-ball foul and there was no next play on which to enforce the penalty. it doesn’t matter if he took his helmet off while the ball was live or not. it doesn’t matter if he took his helmet off when we had the ball or Tennessee did.
So even if we ignore the number of comments you went back and forth trying to argue that the clock expiring ends the game (before finally acknowledging that that isn’t accurate), your argument still isn’t the reason Cody wasn’t flagged.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So even if we ignore the number of comments you went back and forth trying to argue that the clock expiring ends the game (before finally acknowledging that that isn’t accurate),
Dude, for the love of God, everything I have argued about the clock ending the game has been based on the idea that the penalty occurred after both the play and game ended.
The thing that has pissed me off so much is that you keep trying to say I don’t know the rule because I didn’t clarify exactly what I was trying to say (it’s kind of hard when I have about 30 seconds to 1 minute to type and post a response…I can’t even sit down to type a full response until the morning or lunch time and by that time some jerk keeps giving me crap about something I wasn’t even confused by…I didn’t clarify, that’s my fault, but I assumed that it wasn’t necessary to state the obvious. I’ve played and coached football for almost 20 years, I know this rule even if I didn’t make that clear)
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 27, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Don't
Like it when Mommy and Daddy Fight!
I'm in no condition to drive...wait! I shouldn't listen to myself, I'm drunk.
by That Other Dave on Oct 27, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you don’t have time to write an accurate response, you should wait until you do.
You can’t blame other people for your own failure to explain something.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I didn’t think I’d be taken to task for something like that. I figured that amongst friends I would have the benefit of the doubt, since I post and communicate here every day, and I didn’t see the need to state the obvious about the expiration of a quarter or the blocked field goal going past the neutral zone, etc. etc. because I was sharing a harmless opinion which, regardless of being right or wrong, wasn’t that big of a deal nor was it deserving of chiding comments about Michael Jackson and how much of a dumbshit I am or whatever it was you wrote. I didn’t think I needed to establish my credibility on the rules or other issues, that I could simply state an opinion, right or wrong, without being condescended by a fellow RBR member (even though you go after people frequently and I should expect as much). I didn’t think I was writing something for publication or something that would be anything more than a comment by an anonymous person named Bamagrad. I didn’t know that Pete Holiday, esq. has the job of policing what other Bama fans say or think, and I didn’t think I’d be held in the same light as some toothless hillbilly who never sees fault in Alabama and thinks we’re going to win the championship every year simply because we’re Alabama.
I didn’t think I’d be treated like that so I didn’t spend half an hour explicating exactly what I was thinking, no matter how outlandish or asinine it might have seemed, because I was just throwing an opinion out there without expecting somebody to jump all over my ass in a condescending manner.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 27, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This site...
…was more fun when Bama fans didn’t treat each other like Auburn fans so much.
It’s still fun to drive around…but you have to be more careful not to run into the assholes potholes.
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Oct 27, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moving past the insults
I spewed earlier, I think the problem is/was that you’re completely insensitive to the feelings of other posters on this site. That’s not to say that we’re made of tissue paper, but you should address people the same way you would address them if they were standing next to you. In fact, you should probably make more of an effort to be nice since we’re all members of the same friggin’ site. Just because we’re communicating via the internet doesn’t mean your condescending tone (and don’t act like I’m the first to say that because the guys at Rocky Top Talk said the same thing) doesn’t make people want to put you in a headlock and show you what’s up.
I mean, you can disagree and that’s fine, but you don’t have to be so condescending about it all the time. I’m patient and nice to people. I like to joke around. But if you act like a jerk with me over something stupid I’ll be classless as you called me. Where I come from being condescending to anyone, regardless of what they said, regardless of their credibility, got an assbeating. There’s no need for it. Nobody needs to be smarmy about anything.
Now you’ll probably reply in some insulting way. And maybe some people will say I overreacted (which I did) but no one will deny that you’re extremely condescending.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 27, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. My email is easily available. If you’ve got a problem with me and want to resolve it like adults, feel free to shoot me an email.
If you want to piss and moan and have a giant flame-out in the thread, I’m happy to help with that, too.
Also, for what it’s worth, if you want to convince someone to “be nicer” to you, you might start by not being the one to start throwing around personal insults.
I just figured that, amongst “friends,” I could tell someone that they’re wrong without the person launching into a profanity-laced tirade.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
sincerely apologize for the profane tirade. It’s been a rough week, a rough season, a frustrating year; my classes are underperforming, my wife and I are both working 10-12 hours a day, the people with whom I work are fighting amongst each other (not with me, but their fighting and refusal to show up and do their job means I have to pick up the slack for them) and I let all that affect me. I do not want to give up my identity so I will not contact your personal e-mail.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 27, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The apology is appreciated. I didn’t take it personally — I try to avoid taking anything written on the internet personally.
That said, I don’t have any beef with you and I wasn’t suggesting that you needed to email me an apology — just that I’ve always found people to be 100x more reasonable and considerate in private conversation than when they have an audience (even though it should probably be the other way around).
I try to avoid getting bogged down in personal debates because a) it’s almost always a huge derail of the thread and b) it’s almost always a heat-of-the-moment debate and those rarely end well.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW: for all of the whining, I have yet to receive an email about issues like these at RBR, so either people are spineless or they’re not half as offended as they let on.
Maybe playing the victim is a good catharsis?
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There you go again
I’m out of here
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 27, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really not sure what about that got under your skin. For starters, it wasn’t about you.
Second, there just aren’t a lot of other good reasons to explain a person spending a bunch of energy airing their grievances in a public forum and then not taking the opportunity to settle the issues like adults.
As someone who likes resolving differences, passing up an opportunity to do it is highly suspicious.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We might be in a blind squirrel situation right now, but bobo’s 100% right about this. The clock expiring does not end the play, and that’s exactly why plays like the one in the Trinity game from a few years ago can exist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7oF4ZDigjM
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just noticed it
But how about that Millsaps player who just gave up on the play and sat down about 20 yards behind the action?
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My money is on D-lineman who simply could not make it all the way down the field . . . but I had never noticed him before, either. He probably felt like a schmuck.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably
It’s like the guy near the end of this play who allowed the Michigan ballcarrier to run right by him. If that guy had pitched the ball to either of his friends behind him, UM would have won that game.
(Watch the 0:35 mark)
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait wait wait
So a minute ago you were arguing that field goal = punt but now you’re saying that punts can’t be advanced by the receiving team?
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No,
That was me reading “kicking team” as “returning team”. My bad.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And really
Punts and blocked Field Goals aren’t that much different in the rulebooks.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well — I’ve spent too much of this workday with my nose in the NCAA manual, so absent some really obvious rule I’m missing, we’ll probably just have to agree to disagree — I’ve updated the post to reflect the outstanding issue.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A good place to find an obvious rule...
…is in the definitions section.
Scrimmage Kick
ARTICLE 7.
(a) A scrimmage kick made in or behind the neutral zone is a legal kick by Team A during a scrimmage down before team possession changes.
(b) A scrimmage kick has crossed the neutral zone when it touches the ground, a player, an official or anything beyond the neutral zone
Field Goal Attempt
ARTICLE 9. A field goal attempt is a scrimmage kick. It may be a place kick or drop kick.
So what have we learned?
-A field goal is a scrimmage kick.
-Bobo was correct when stated that:
Quite clearly, the ball is not dead the second the ball lands past the neutral zone.
Reading. The. Rules. Is fun.
________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you.
by kidbourbon on Oct 27, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You haven’t provided even an ounce of new information here, so I’m not sure how you think re-stating any of this is really making bobo’s point.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just trying to help you out...
…as you appeared to be confused in an above response as to what qualifies as a “scrimmage kick.”
Is that not what you were saying? Hold on. Were you actually arguing that the phrase “when a … scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone is made” means something other than “dude just made a field goal”?
________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you.
by kidbourbon on Oct 27, 2009 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
need strikethroughs
“dude just made a field goal attempted a field goal when he was somewhere other than behind the line of scrimmage”?
________________________________
Eric Berry is better at football than you.
by kidbourbon on Oct 27, 2009 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You would be more help if you actually read the entire thread rather than jumping in at a random spot and tossing in definitions that have already been quoted or used elsewhere.
I can see where bobo is coming from but, again, I still don’t see it as being as clear-cut as y’all do, especially when you consider the number of short FGs which are whistled dead before they leave the field of play.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The ball went over the line (mark it zero, Dude)
the clock was at 0:00. It’s like an incomplete pass. It’s no longer live, therefore the officials waved/whistled it off. Cody took his helmet off at this point.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Oct 26, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish they had thrown a flag,
and then said that the ball would be backed up 15 yards, and then announce that the game was over, so that Kiffin wouldn’t have had to open his mouth.
by jsholt969 on Oct 26, 2009 2:07 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
How does Todd put it....
ZOOMG! DEM CHEATIN’ BAMMERS! KODY TUK HIZ HLMET OFFF! VULS SHULDA REKICK FIFTEN YARDZ CLOSER!!
by BamerinBR on Oct 26, 2009 2:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Pete!
This was exactly the authoritative, no nonsense, unassailable write-up I was looking for from RBR. You never disappoint. Do you have an unnatural affinity for rules that I should know about, by the way? Lawyer, perhaps?
Also, I just heard on Finebaum: “The SEC has ruled that a penalty should have been called on Terrence Cody, and David Lincoln has been ordered to report to Bryant Denny at 4:30pm this afternoon for the re-kick.” I vote for Mt. Cody vs. Lincoln, one-on-one this time.
by Espyonage on Oct 26, 2009 2:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I do have a law degree, yes.
I’d gladly pay $250 to see Cody and Lincoln one-on-one.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This Post Is a FAIL
You used words of two, three and even four syllables…no way a UcheaT fan will be able to read to see why is coach is wrong…again.
by Watchman on Oct 26, 2009 3:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Should read
You used words of two, three, and even four syllables. No way a UcheaT fan will be able to read it to see why his coach is wrong, again.
But, what would I know? ;-)
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 26, 2009 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was a one syllable word
some of you smarter Viles can handle some of those. : )
I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR
by SugarBowl93 on Oct 26, 2009 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How are we still UcheaT
When you are ones on probation?
Ball, oskie, cover, block, cut and slice, pursue and gang tackle... for this is the WINNING EDGE.
by pound the rock on Oct 27, 2009 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only reason this is even a discussion is bc Tn fans listened to Gary “TeBlow” Danielson and Vern Drunkquist advance exactly these false arguments. I only wish the Commish could suspend those two for their ongoing clownish commentary.
by bamainexile on Oct 26, 2009 3:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
God can
only grant so many miracles a day. He used he remainders on Cody’s block.
Auburn fans are like slinkys... not really good for anything but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
by IHC800 on Oct 26, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if..
Kiffin has a case (which he doesn’t) the clock read 0:00 by the time Cody took his helmet off.
At the end of the day
by Mikeno on Oct 26, 2009 5:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Here we go again
The game doesn’t end when the clock hits 00:00.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 26, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like I walked into a Juggalo convention...
"Hollywood made a movie of my life. The film had me proposing to my wife on the football field. I would never misuse a football field that way." -Crazy Legs Hirsch
by Stuck in the Plains on Oct 26, 2009 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
“The foul for taking helmet off is a live ball foul treated as a dead-ball foul,” Bloom wrote in an e-mail Saturday night. “That is, if it happens on a play where time does not expire then the penalty is enforced on the following play. However since the clock ran out on that play, then there is no next play, so there is no penalty to mark off.”
At the end of the day
by Mikeno on Oct 26, 2009 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In other words
Pete just owned you.
36-0
by Bamabrave4 on Oct 26, 2009 6:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
12-10 enough said.
I live in the past and I'm better than you.
by Destindune on Oct 26, 2009 6:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Good job Pete
and it is what I’ve been saying to me UT friends. It is a penalty on the next play, but since you did not have the ball and there was no time there was no next play.
Once the kick rolled across the line it was dead, and the game was over. There is no way UT can get that ball back even if Cody had slugged their kicker or even gone over and slugged Kiffin. They can’t get that ball back. It is on the next play they get a penalty and there is no next play.
Now what Kiffin really wants is for us to get penalized 15 yards at the start of next years game.
Can you see Saban or Bryant making a stink about this kind of thing? I don’t even think Dubose would have made a stink.
I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.
by 5026 on Oct 26, 2009 8:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Rules of the game
If this is truely the rule, I suggest that next year on the last play of the game that the UT players walk up and punch the Bama players in the mouth as time expires. Dead ball foul, time expired, GAME OVER!
by OrangeFrenzy on Oct 26, 2009 9:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You
would
Lee Corso: How would you describe tailgating at Alabama?
Kirk Herbstreit: Barbecue and Ralph Lauren
by animalcracker on Oct 26, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you stay classy, volunteer fans.
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
by kleph on Oct 26, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea have them to that
that way they get suspended for the rest of the plays in every subsequent game
by bamainexile on Oct 26, 2009 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This point should be made . . .
The SEC office could decide to suspend Cody for taking his helmet off precisely because no penalty could be assessed in the game.
by M. Johnson Defender on Oct 26, 2009 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is true.
And if Cody punched out a UT player he could be suspended. But if he did it on the last play Alabama still wins the game there is no do over on the kick.
I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.
by 5026 on Oct 26, 2009 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hrm
Maybe if it were done in a Bowl game… ;-)
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 27, 2009 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is cute (read: classless), but it also demonstrates just how little you understand about this situation (“this situation” being “the rules of football”).
Punching someone in the mouth during the game would be a live-ball foul and is, in fact, absolutely nothing like a player taking his helmet off as he runs off the field.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The CALL
Honestly I as a UT fan is okay with the no call. Our special teams have been terrible all year. Our off. and def. was better than yours on that day and we should have won but special teams is also part of the game and we blew it. Congrats to you. You were extremely lucky but what championship teams haven`t been lucky at some point. Im just proud that my boysgive you a game. Cant wait till next year.
by OrangeFrenzy on Oct 26, 2009 9:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The delusion lives on.
Face it: your team need a lot of luck to dig themselves out of the hole ‘Bama put y’all in, they got all the luck they could expect, and they still couldn’t close the deal.
Im just proud that my boysgive you a game.
They do factor moral victories into the BCS standings, so y’all still have a shot!
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting note on that
Someone over at RTT ran the BCS numbers to Tennessee, and found that they were, like, 35th or some such; pretty dang high for a 3-4 team.
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 27, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Y'all only...
…lose to the best…and Auburn….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Oct 27, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And UCLA
That one still hurts. Why couldn’t we have Good Crompton by then?
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 27, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
for the record
i completely feel your pain on that one.
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
by kleph on Oct 27, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did they run the numbers of everyone else? Is 35th “pretty dang high” for a 3-4 team?
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is they? Which numbers did ‘they’ run? Who is everyone else? What definition of pretty are you using? How much significance does ‘dang’ add? By ‘high’, are you referring to elevation, pitch, or intoxication? Are we talking about a team with a 3-4 record or a 3-4 defense? Is it fair to refer to UT as a ‘team’? Are you really wrong all the time, or are you occasionally right? How would you know? What is time? Do you pronounce your name like ‘peat’ or ‘petty’? Have you ever been on a holiday? Is bobo_the_vol a bobo doll? Does he like orange? Does he like apples? How ’bout them apples?
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Oct 27, 2009 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like apples.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Oct 27, 2009 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
by Bens4vcobra on Oct 27, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
worse fans in the sec
I tried to congratulate you for a good game and all of you continue to talk trash. Even the Florida fans have more class than you guys. I dont think being LUCKY and squeaking bye a 3-4 team is worthy of storming the field and talking all the trash afterward. You would think that we were the #1 team in the country.
by OrangeFrenzy on Oct 27, 2009 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so we are supposed to give you a free pass on bad logic and bullshit because your team lost?
you were the one proposing having your players punch ours in the mouth. so forgive us that we seek a somewhat more qualified authority for defining what constitutes “classy” or not.
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
by kleph on Oct 27, 2009 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did any...
…Bama fans storm the field? I was there, but I don’t remember seeing that.
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Oct 27, 2009 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just cried a little bit inside.
The worst SEC fan:
Bama Bangs
Jorts
Mississippi Cowbell
A Georgia’s Fan Insistance That They Are Important
Tennessee Fans: We win at teh Internet!
by bobo_the_vol on Oct 29, 2009 2:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kiffin just makes me wish we could play Tennessee again..
after a week of rest. But we’ve got bigger fish to fry.
by crimsontsunami on Oct 26, 2009 11:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Interpretation
Rule 4-3-h does indeed refer to when a kick is made by a player that has crossed the line of scrimage. This is illegal, as is a return kick and that’s why the ball is dead in either case.
Also, you stated that the ball has to hit an Alabama player before it hits the ground for Tennessee to recover, which is not true. If the ball is on the ground and an Alabama player tries to pick it up and return it (which is legal, but wouldn’t be by your interpretation), but drops it, Tennessee can recover the ball.
All that is moot, as Tennessee failed to recover the kick.
by boxedlunch on Oct 27, 2009 11:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Cody should send Kiffin an autographed helmet in the mail.
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
by Zoltar on Oct 27, 2009 4:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i just want to say that i am downright STUNNED...
we’ve had this thread up and running more than 24 hours and have yet to break godwin’s law.
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
by kleph on Oct 27, 2009 4:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What do you...
…think we are…a bunch of Nazis?
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Oct 27, 2009 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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