Whining about Running Up The Score
by PeteHoliday on Nov 29, 2009 6:40 PM CST
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PrintNot 'Bama related (at least directly), but it is college football and it's been annoying me to no end today.
Last night in the USC/UCLA game the Trojans were up by 2 touchdowns with about a minute to go and they had the ball. Pete Carroll had Barkley line up in the victory formation and take a knee.
UCLA called a timeout.
On the next play, USC ran a play-action pass and scored on a 48 yard bomb to a wide-open man.
Today, UCLA blogs (and others who don't like Pete Carroll) are all up in arms and whining about Carroll running up the score. Like this from our SB Nation colleagues at Bruins Nation:
Not surprisingly Chetey Petey being the hypocritical, SCumbag that he is poured it on when the game was already decided with a long bomb to the endzone
Now, if we're talking about some rent-a-win cupcake from Division I-AA, sure. Don't run up the score. That's just tacky. But, at least the last time I checked, UCLA was a team in a BCS conference. If you don't want a conference rival to run up the score, stop them.
Even more importantly, though, if you think the game is over and you're just playing out the time remaining, don't do things to prolong the game. If you've already conceded defeat, don't act like you want to keep playing.
That means (for example) that you should not have your corners isolated in bump-and-run coverage when they're not fast enough to keep up with the WR, more or less begging for a deep ball. (Like Auburn did in the Iron Bowl last year)
It also means that when the other team is trying to end the game, you shouldn't be calling timeouts.
Calling a timeout there is a way of saying "We want the ball back so we can try and win this thing." If you think that the game is close enough that you can win it with a minute left on the clock when you don't even have the ball, why shouldn't your opponent be trying to score? Especially when you're going to leave a guy open like USC's wide-out was.
If UCLA fans want to be mad at someone, it should be their head-coach.
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it's much more fun
to throw some more hate at USC. thanks for screwing that up for me, pete. :)
"You have to create 6 seconds of hell each play..."
Coach Nick Saban
exactly
this is really the best of both worlds. petey looks liek a punk for whining about the 2 pt conversion stanford made, then to turn around and do this. but also neuheisel and his minions look like idiots for complaining when they had just called a TO, essentially declaring to everyone involved that in their minds the game wasn’t over and UCLA still was going to try to win….
both so-cal schools are filled with idiot cry baby hypocrites. i love it.
for the next five days there is nothing in my heart but hate. pure, untempered, ice-cold hate. fond memories are for saturday. - Kleph
by tempebamafan on Nov 30, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
Agree 100%
What you're seeing is team spirit. It's like the Holy Spirit, but more powerful.
-Hank Hill
What USC did showed no respect for the game
There’s no comparison to what we did last year against Auburn. They still had their first team in the game. When we scored against Auburn last year there was more time remaining in the game and we had our second team in. The play we called was designed to gain a first down but they played press coverage so McElroy went to the automatic deep throw. We were also much closer to the end zone.
The play USC called was designed for only one thing and it achieved the result. You’re right, it probably would have been tolerable but then Carroll and Co. have to pump their fist and showboat like a bunch of punks.
I don’t think that showed any respect for the game, but then again, in following SC throughout the Pete Carroll era, I haven’t ever really thought he was the classiest, most respectable coach. The guy runs his program with new wave values. He’s totally arrogant and his players are usually classless and undisciplined.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
I agree with this
it wasn’t the play so much as Carroll and his team’s reaction to the play.
Auburn and Tennessee fans are a lot like Slinkys...neither are worth much but you do get a sense of satisfaction from pushing them down a flight of stairs
What's wrong with them leaving their starters in?
And for that matter, for calling a play designed to score? They risked losing starters due to injury going into whatever bowl they’ll see, which is their problem, and Cal didn’t exactly concede the game.
I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR
“Respect for the game?” What does that even mean?
If the game was close enough with for UCLA to win it in with 60 seconds left on the clock, it was close enough for USC to try to score again.
How he and his players responded after that has nothing to do with “running up the score” and, really, I’m not sure I care about that, either. I wouldn’t want it to be our team, but they got excited because they scored a touchdown on their rival. It’s not like they were out there killing puppies.
I'm wrong all the time.
I wouldn’t want it to be our team
We did try a fake FG and go for it on 4th down against UK…
Auburna delenda est!
We were just trying to kill clock deep in their territory
We didn’t kick the field goal and we went for it on fourth down to gain another first down and keep the chains moving.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
like i said before..
The fake FG just to pick up the 1st down was ok…the deep pass not so much.
Auburna delenda est!
Are you talking about Alabama's pass on 4th and long...
against Kentucky? Because that was the only logical play to call. If we run the ball, the clock stops anyway on a turnover on downs, and if we kick the field goal, we are running it up. So, instead, we threw it to get the first down, which just happened to be in the end zone. We didn’t care about scoring, just ending the game. Of course, you might be referring to USC’s play, in which case you can disregard what I’m saying here.
by crimsontsunami on Nov 30, 2009 3:12 PM CST up reply actions
I am talking about the UK play...
if we run up the middle, the clock stops only for a few seconds. By passing the ball and it going incomplete, the clock still stops.
Look, im not really all up in arms about the play. Did i think it was unfounded and an odd call? Yep…Do i think Saban is some jerk and tries to run the score up every chance he gets? Nope, in fact he does the opposite.
Auburna delenda est!
How does the clock stop only for a few seconds?
It’s a turnover on downs. Clock stops until Kentucky gets it regardless of whether it’s a run or pass play. Thus, if it takes the same amount of time off the clock if you run or pass, passing makes sense unless you think you can make the first down on a run play. By the way, against Arkansas we were facing just that situation on a 4th and 3 or 4 and decided to run. Why? Because we felt it was more probable that we would make it. We would’ve done the same against Kentucky if the distance were the same, but it wasn’t. And I know you’re not up in arms about it. I just don’t see the logic behind running the ball in that situation.
by crimsontsunami on Nov 30, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
I'm bored....
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Nov 30, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions
Has the whole world gone CRAZY?!?
Am I the only one who gives a shit about the rules? Mark it zero!
by crimsontsunami on Nov 30, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
you run the ball
cause you’re playing against a team that has no chance to win in that situation. Its UK…not UT or AU. No need for it. Just run the clock out..if you can. If you can’t, you give the ball back and the game still ends.
Auburna delenda est!
"Respect for the game?" What does that even mean?
I don’t know if you’ve ever played a team sport, but at Alabama and other places, there are little things that are done out of respect for the game. You never walk on a football field, whether it’s Monday or Sunday, whether it’s the practice field or the game field. You don’t wear a hat inside the meeting room. You don’t wear earrings in the Alabama meeting rooms. During games, you never taunt an opponent. You never throw your helmet. After a good hit, you help a guy up. You respect your opponent. If you get beat, you don’t make excuses. There are many of these things that are done to be classy and show respect for both the game, yourself, and your opponent.
We’ve always been knocked for being conservative, but I can tell you this, we wouldn’t scowl at our opponents and then throw a play action bomb downfield and then hop up and down pointing and sticking our tongues out. And our head coach certainly wouldn’t lead this type of behavior. That shows no respect. It’s like walking down the line after a walk in baseball or jogging during a pop up. USC tries to break a lot of these traditions to cater to young people these days and I don’t like it. A lot of people with an old school mentality don’t like it either because it’s disrespectful and obnoxious.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
. . . there are little things that are done out of respect for the game . . .
Everything you go on to talk about is really just respect for yourself and for others.
And, like I’ve said before, showing off after the pass is a much different thing than “running up the score”.
As for what the play was “designed” to do . . . if you go back and actually watch the replay, you’ll see that there were only two routes run on that play. Both backs and the tight-end stayed in to block. The end (#18) ran a post from the left side of the formation while the receiver on the other side (#19, I think) ran a route across the middle right around the 1st down marker. #19 was well covered (possibly even double-covered) while nobody bothered to go after #18 until he was well behind the secondary.
So even if the play was designed such that #18 was supposed to pull the safety back off of crossing route to make for an easy first down, what the defense gave Barkley was two options: a wide-open man or a double-covered man.
Do you throw into double coverage and risk an interception that could cost you the game (Pick-six, onside kick recovery, touchdown is all very possible in 60 seconds) or do you hit the open guy?
The answer is obvious.
Whatever your complaints might be about the dancing around after the fact (I think The Game will probably forgive them), this wasn’t “running up the score”.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Nov 30, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
It is obvious we will never see eye to eye on this
and that we have entirely different viewpoints on football, life and a lot of other things, so there is no point in discussing it further.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Nov 30, 2009 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This is entirely too rational a response....
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Nov 30, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
holy shit!
someone finally did it. someone won an argument with pete. well, on style points at least, it’s been way too long since i was on the debate team and i aint never been a judge…
for the next five days there is nothing in my heart but hate. pure, untempered, ice-cold hate. fond memories are for saturday. - Kleph
by tempebamafan on Nov 30, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
I once...
…argued pete to a draw (but of course, he still thinks he won…).
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Nov 30, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
Not everyone shares the same definitions of definitions.
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Nov 30, 2009 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
Is is a word?
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Nov 30, 2009 7:19 PM CST up reply actions
I agree to a point
If you think that celebrating like a bunch of idiots after a play = running up the score, no, we’ll never agree on that.
But I’m interested to hear why you believe that play was “designed” to score a touchdown and it wasn’t just the result of extremely poor defensive play by UCLA.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Nov 30, 2009 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
call me crazy..
but im pretty sure the object on every play is produce a TD. Now, the purpose might only be to get a 1st down, but when a OC draws up a new play, his main goal will be to try to get it into the endzone. Of course, plays can be called during a game to just get the yards needed, but the play itself is intended to score points.
"The goal is to be a champion," Saban said. "I didn’t say to win a championship. I just said be a champion. That’s our goal here. That’s what we want to do."- Nick Saban
Eventually and ideally, yes. You could definitely say that most all offensive plays are supposed to contribute to that long-term goal, but the the immediate goal and the expected result of a dive play run from your own 20 is not going to be to score an 80 yard touchdown.
And that’s to say nothing of plays that are run in a 2-minute offense which are designed to move the ball with the maximum safety to the clock.
I'm wrong all the time.
my $0.02
I agree wholeheartedly with you, Bamagrad, Carroll should have taken another knee or run a draw, the play action was completely unnecessary and showed a downright lack of respect for his opponent, utterly classless and reminiscent of something Urban Meyer would do. You’re up by 14 with 44 seconds to go, you have absolutely no business throwing the football, as an incomplete pass only prolongs the game, and a pick changes the situation entirely. I don’t give a shit if jt, grad, and I are the only ones who feel this way, it’s just this humble one’s opinion
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
by Thomas Walker Esq on Nov 30, 2009 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
I agree, Pete.
When it comes to BCS teams facing off, any running up the score whining is out of bounds. If you don’t want them to score, stop them – if you can’t, get out of the league, or try again next year.
The problem I have is the showboating afterward. That was arrogant and classless, and nearly caused a scene that would really not have been fun to read about the next day’s papers. Act like you’ve been there before.
I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR
If they didn't want USC to score...
they shouldn’t have called a timeout. They were going to run the clock out until UCLA took the timeout. If you’re going to call a timeout that tells me you still want to play. So if you still want to play I’m going to play as well…
does anyone remember
back in the 90’s when florida was blowing out UK late in the game. I believe they were up by at least 40. UF had the ball and UK kept calling TO’s to try and get the ball back. Spurrier was getting pissed, so he called a play action pass and hit the WR for a TD. UK fans called Spurrier dirty for running it up…well UK..if you hadn’t called any time outs, Spurrier wouldn’t have thrown the pass…
Same thing this year in our game against UK but in this one i agree with the UK fans. Running the fake FG was one thing. It was obvious all we were trying to do is get the 1st down. Throwing a deep ball into the endzone on 4th down was not right…
Auburna delenda est!
I didn't have a problem with USC calling the deep throw,
after all, if the Bruins didn’t want them to score, they should have stopped them.
The problem I have is Pete Carroll bitching two weeks ago about Harbaugh going for two to hit 50 in the Stanford game. You don’t get to bitch about somebody running up the score on you when you’re just going to turn around and do it to someone else. Grade-A asshole right there.
Point is
Carroll wasn’t running up the score against UCLA. He was responding to UCLA’s opinion that they could still win the game.
If the game is close enough to win in the last 60 seconds and your team ISN’T trying to score again, you’re not doing your job.
I'm wrong all the time.
UCLA called the timeout
if they didn’t want to play anymore they should’ve let the clock go. However, Pete Carroll could’ve just taken another knee, but he didn’t cause he’s a douchebag.
"Jay Jacobs can't go to the bathroom without Bobby Lowder's permission" - Paul Finebaum
he didn’t cause he’s a douchebag
You are right…he is a douchebag…but not because he threw the pass…IMO, when your biggest rival calls a TO when the game is obviously over…you deserve to have that play called.
Now if he had done that against a lesser rival or a D-2 school than he’d be a jerk but against UCLA…its was the right call.
Auburna delenda est!
You lose the right to whine about “running up the score” when you stop the clock that your opponent is trying to run out. If you want to play like that, you better man-up and stop them. Or, you know, at least cover both receivers.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Nov 30, 2009 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
they have no right to whine about it.
"Jay Jacobs can't go to the bathroom without Bobby Lowder's permission" - Paul Finebaum
by GumptownTiger on Nov 30, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
You know it's almost Christmas...
…when an Auburn fan agrees with Pete….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Nov 30, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
Nevermind...
It was a tiger and an elephant playing together. It was cute. Screw you for judging me…
"There's a lot of blood, sweat, and guts between dreams and success" - Coach Bryant
Maybe
its just me but I sorta got the impression that the USC reaction was more a result of UCLA having a collective brain fart. Watching the replay the Bruins’ D is just standing around while SC gets that last score. I think the reaction was mostly based on the “WTF!?” moment the entire SC team had. UCLA calls a timeout to extend the game, then just stands around while SC scores again…. I would be saying WTF with a smile on my face too.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
by Bens4vcobra on Nov 30, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
I'm going to have to take up Bamagrad's mantel here.......
You guys can slice it anyway you want to make it sound right, and maybe its an age gap thing for me, but I think it was was uncalled for in any circumstance.
Paul “Bear” Bryant and Gene Stallings were with any doubt 2 of the greatest character men at the The University of Alabama and having watched both of them coach for many years, I can tell you without a doubt that NEITHER one of them would have done it. UCLA called timeout because most coaches don’t leave them on the board, for that 1 in a million shot, but all Carroll had to do was kneel down again. But, he chose to show his players it all about showing up someone, rather than showing sportsmanship and class.
Call me old fashion, I don’t care. But IMO, as the minority opinion here. it was wrong.
I don't mind bad news, and I don't mind good news, but I can't stand surprises! Coach Nick Saban
UCLA had all of their time outs
If he takes another knee, UCLA takes another timeout. He takes ANOTHER knee, UCLA takes ANOTHER time out
and now we’re looking at 4th and 15 with almost a minute on the clock and only up two scores. Punt? Go for it? You’re basically putting the entire game in the hands of your defense — or you could try to get a first down.
The play USC ran could very easily have been designed to earn a first down but UCLA decided against covering the deep receiver, which basically begs for the long ball, no matter the situation.
I'm wrong all the time.
Perhaps anecdotal but in response to your statement...
…and maybe its an age gap thing for me, but I think it was was uncalled for in any circumstance.
I was discussing this with my dad last night (who is in his 70s…my folks waited really late to have kids) and he said he thought Neuheisel had it coming given the calling of the timeouts.
We then laughed heartily over the famous Woody Hayes quote about why he went for two despite being up by 36 points against Michigan: “Because I couldn’t go for three.”
Perhaps I wasn't clear.......
The age gap is in the thinking that we live a MTV generation that wants to stick in your face at anytime, and this is as much to do with life as a football game.
I won’t get deep because we just talking and its ok to disagree sometimes. If Neuheisal said he should have stopped it, then its on him.
As for Woody Hayes, he was not a classy man at all, just looked why he had to retire. I was watching that game when it happened. He’s not a good example.
I don't mind bad news, and I don't mind good news, but I can't stand surprises! Coach Nick Saban
after watching the video of the game..
UCLA had it coming to them. Why the hell are you calling TO’s in that situation? 51 secs left, down by two scores and you call a TO..really? You can see that Pete was like. “did they really just call a TO? They did! Well screw them. Watch this!”
Id do the same thing. UCLA fans crying about the play should ask their coach, why? Why did you call a TO and why didnt you cover the deep WR? What they shouldn’t be asking is why Carroll called the play, cause to me its obvious.
Ill say it again. In that situation, UCLA had it coming to them.
"The goal is to be a champion," Saban said. "I didn’t say to win a championship. I just said be a champion. That’s our goal here. That’s what we want to do."- Nick Saban
OCR
Orange County Register had a quote from Neuheisal basically saying UCLA should’ve stopped it if they didn’t want it to happen.
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