Legendary Florida State coach Bobby Bowden, who built one of college football's greatest dynasties in 34 seasons with the Seminoles, plans to announce his retirement Tuesday morning, sources close to the situation told ESPN.com.
Well, it's clearly coming almost a decade too late, but nevertheless a big hat tip to Bowden for a great career. And on the flip side, congrats to Joe Paterno, who will now (and perhaps almost forever) go down as the winningest college coach of all time.
9 months ago
outsidethesidelines
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Eh, in the aggregate...
… I imagine there would have been very little difference in what really happened and what would have happened had Bowden taken the job in 1987.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." -- Milton Friedman
by outsidethesidelines on Nov 30, 2009 6:35 PM CST up reply actions
Makes me wonder...
…what things would’ve been like if he had retired at, say, 75….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Nov 30, 2009 6:36 PM CST up reply actions
^^^^^^
Cheap shot at an old person who’s more talented today than you’ll ever be. He was allowed to coach however long he wanted to. One of the last legends from that generation. Do you ridicule the Rolling Stones for still rocking? Should Bob Dylan retire?
by crimsontsunami on Nov 30, 2009 7:41 PM CST up reply actions
I don’t think it was a cheap shot (though I could see where it might be interpreted as such.)
College football is a cruel business and Bowden was allowed to remain coach way past when he should have. Just because he did amazing things at that program doesn’t mean he should’ve been allowed to run it into the ground either (or perhaps run it into mediocrity would be more accurate.)
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." -- Milton Friedman
by outsidethesidelines on Nov 30, 2009 7:55 PM CST up reply actions
I think it is...
Calm down, Nico, you’re scaring us with your reasoned disagreements!
by crimsontsunami on Nov 30, 2009 8:02 PM CST up reply actions
It was for CT, bt...
… if you think you need some Nico, feel free to indulge.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." -- Milton Friedman
by outsidethesidelines on Nov 30, 2009 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, and...
Har har. I still hold my stance, not that it matters.
by crimsontsunami on Nov 30, 2009 8:02 PM CST up reply actions
Clarifying...
I don’t believe in dictatorships. I like democracy. By “he was allowed to coach however long he wanted to,” I also should have added that it’s only true if enough people were in favor of him staying. But if enough were in favor of it, then he should’ve been allowed to do what he loved as long as he wanted to, even if he was “past his prime.” Who are we to stop a man from doing what makes him happy, assuming it still did? He’s not hurting anyone, and who knows? He might’ve been able to pull off a big season or two.
by crimsontsunami on Nov 30, 2009 10:55 PM CST up reply actions
Not Hurting Anyone?
I bet the current students, administration, and other people in the athletic department might differ on that.
by Bobby Briggs on Nov 30, 2009 11:23 PM CST up reply actions
Read what I said.
If enough disapprove, then time for a graceful retirement, which I imagine is what’s happening.
by crimsontsunami on Nov 30, 2009 11:44 PM CST up reply actions
You
forgot to mention the players.
I don’t agree CT. I don’t think just because you had success 10+ years ago, that it entitles you to a job today. This may hurt some sensitive ears out there, but Bobby Bowden is not entitled to be the HC at FSU. I don’t care what he’s done. To suggest otherwise, is to draw the conclusion that Bobby Bowden is bigger than FSU football. That his wants and desires are to be put ahead of the program’s. I think instead asking an emotion-based question (i.e. “should” Bowden be “allowed” to coach), you need to ask this question in reverse. Is what Bowden wants as an individual more important than FSU? The obvious answer is no.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
You guys are beating the Straw Man senseless.
by crimsontsunami on Dec 1, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
You obviously don't know what that term means, or you simply have no response to my post.
He was allowed to coach however long he wanted to. One of the last legends from that generation.
By "he was allowed to coach however long he wanted to," I also should have added that it’s only true if enough people were in favor of him staying.
Basically you’re sounding the drum that because he is a legend, he should be allowed to coach for as long as he wants so long as the majority is in favor of it. Results be damned. Sounds rather entitlement-ish to me.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
Or I thought you misinterpreted what I said...
I never said that I “think just because you had success 10+ years ago, that it entitles you to a job today.” But now that I’ve read your new post, and you’ve clarified what you mean by entitlement, I will respond, but again I think you continue to misinterpret what I said.
I said “…it’s only true if enough people were in favor of him staying.” “Enough” does not necessarily mean a majority; it’s whatever whoever makes the decisions defines it as. There is no exact definition. It is, like all hiring/firing/retiring decisions, a judgment call.
And I did not say, “because he is a legend” this applies. It would apply to anybody, but more so to him. Which reputation do you think is going to help a coach keep his job longer, even after a few seasons of mediocre or even poor results? Coach Bryant’s or Coach Dubose’s? Obvious – it’s Bryant’s. If you think that’s entitlement, then I’d say entitlement (when it comes to football) is not so bad.
Results be damned.
This is where you went after something I actually implied. So here’s my response: Is Florida State, or any football team, required to be a good team? If “enough” of the people who make the decisions and the large amount of people they’re influenced by don’t have a problem with the mediocre or poor results from a coach, legendary or not, should they still remove him? I see no reason why. Obviously, at FSU, a school that’s big on football, “enough,” as defined by the university, do have a problem with Bobby Bowden, despite his well-earned legendary status which helped him stick around, and now he’s (probably) gone.
by crimsontsunami on Dec 1, 2009 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
I never misinterpreted anything. You just keep giving longer and longer winded responses that really don’t accomplish anything. See here’s the problem. Your arguement carries the false assumption that the results that Bowden had acheived were good enough for FSU, and they clearly aren’t. And they haven’t been for a significant amount of time. I got everything you said about democracy and “enough” being in favor of keeping them if it suits FSU. I got it. But that ASSUMES the results he was getting are good enough, and they aren’t. So you’re argument is crap.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
Complaining about long-windedness?
Then don’t misinterpret what I have to say, then bait me into an argument, so I have to explain it to you. We were debating over whether my idea about Bobby Bowden should be defined as entitlement (which you still haven’t proven); we were NOT arguing over whether he should have quit or been fired years ago. In response to that, I’m just going to paste what I said to OTS. It’s the post that begins: “I understand why he’s out, and I have no opinion on it really.” So tell me: Where am I wrong now?
But years ago, he (and those in the FSU fan base idiotically hoping for his death now, not then) could not have foreseen the future. I’m sure he believed that he was going to continue helping FSU get to big places, and unfortunately for him and his team it didn’t work out…
I don’t think any of us can judge fairly whether he should have left or not. It was up to him and his university. And sure, he almost certainly would’ve been fired in his later days if he had a different name, but that name wasn’t just a name. He earned his reputation through results, and if he should’ve been fired, then that’s the university’s fault for keeping him around, not his. It isn’t reasonable to expect someone to just step down when he believes in his own capabilities to get his team to the top, especially when he’s already proven his ability to do so.
by crimsontsunami on Dec 2, 2009 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
Your posts are long-winded and convoluted. Just because you say a lot of words doesn’t increase the clarity or quality of your posts. Your original weak arguments to support your opinion are still weak. Long replies don’t change that. And I am not misinterpreting anything. I think you know this, but for some reason you keep replying with posts that just elaborate on the same crap you stated earlier.
But years ago, he (and those in the FSU fan base idiotically hoping for his death now, not then) could not have foreseen the future. I’m sure he believed that he was going to continue helping FSU get to big places, and unfortunately for him and his team it didn’t work out…
I guess the point of this is to say Bowden had good intentions, and didn’t “mean” for the program to fail. I’m not aware of any coach that didn’t want to succeed, or at least hoped to. Saying he or anyone else couldn’t “foresee the future” isn’t really saying anything informative. Nobody can foresee the future. But as OTS alluded to, there was enough evidence to conclude it just wasn’t working anymore. And that evidence had been clearly established before this season ever began.
don’t think any of us can judge fairly whether he should have left or not.
Sorry if this upsets your sensibilities, but yes we can.
It was up to him and his university.
This was part of the problem. It shouldn’t have been up to him. I know you think he “earned the right” to decide when he would step down as long as “enough people” thought it was a-ok but I don’t share that opinion. In fact, I think to believe so is to say Bowden himself is bigger than FSU football.
And sure, he almost certainly would’ve been fired in his later days if he had a different name, but that name wasn’t just a name.
Dude, really? This smacks of entitlement. You just proved the point I stated earlier.
He earned his reputation through results,
And it was results that caused that reputation to erode over time.
and if he should’ve been fired, then that’s the university’s fault for keeping him around, not his. It isn’t reasonable to expect someone to just step down when he believes in his own capabilities to get his team to the top, especially when he’s already proven his ability to do so.
We actually agree here. I don’t expect someone like Bowden to step down without some “nudge” from the administration. I just think they should’ve done it a few years sooner.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
What annoys me...
is that I think we’re both largely in agreement, here, and yet you still believe what I’m saying is crap.
(1) If FSU felt that “it just wasn’t working anymore,” then the university should have fired him before. That is consistent with my view. However, and you seem to agree with me, that doesn’t mean he should have quit, because he probably believed at the time that it would work again.
(2) When I say, “It was up to him and his university,” I did not mean that his judgment overrode the university’s. The university can fire you for whatever the hell reason they want. And guess what? EVERY coach “earns the right” to step down whenever he wants, so long as nobody fires him. That is not a right reserved just for legends. You, too, have this “entitlement” at your job.
(3) Could you have judged fairly whether he should have left in real time? Again, we seem to agree that Bowden wasn’t going to leave, because he “can’t foresee the future” and he “believe[d] in his own [proven] capabilities.” You can judge his decisions in retrospect (hell, anybody can do that), but it isn’t what I’d call a fair judgment of the man himself (i.e., you can’t fairly say he put himself ahead of the university).
(4) “…That name wasn’t just a name.” Again, if you have a problem with Bowden surviving longer on his reputation, I’d like to see what would happen if Coach Bryant had had a similar amount of mediocre years after what he had done. Answer: We would have kept him for a lot longer than we kept Dubose! And with good reason. This is one of the most obvious facts in the world. Is it entitlement? According to you, yes(?)… According to me, maybe, but it’s not a “bad” thing so long as it’s earned. It makes a whole lot of sense, actually (in football).
by crimsontsunami on Dec 2, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
(1) If FSU felt that "it just wasn’t working anymore," then the university should have fired him before. That is consistent with my view. However, and you seem to agree with me, that doesn’t mean he should have quit, because he probably believed at the time that it would work again.
Don’t disagree with anything here. I certainly don’t expect a guy like Bowden to ever admit to himself or anyone else it was time for him to go. That’s why I fault FSU for how they’ve handled this. I’m sure FSU probably put off making a decision hoping he would turn things around. Its obviously not easy telling a the guy who put you on the map its time to go. So I understand FSU’s point of view, but often times the right decisions are the most difficult. As an administrator its your job to put the good of the institution ahead of anything else. Neither side did that in my opinion.
(2) When I say, "It was up to him and his university," I did not mean that his judgment overrode the university’s. The university can fire you for whatever the hell reason they want. And guess what? EVERY coach "earns the right" to step down whenever he wants, so long as nobody fires him. That is not a right reserved just for legends. You, too, have this "entitlement" at your job.
Again, don’t disagree. Maybe I missed it, but this qualifier was missing from your previous explanations:
EVERY coach "earns the right" to step down whenever he wants, so long as nobody fires him.
It was clear Bowden was not going to leave unless he was nudged a bit. And the results on the field weren’t changing, but getting worse in fact. Bowden certainly had enough credibility and capital built up to be given a reasonable chance to fix it, but it just didn’t happen. My opinion – his reasonable chance ran out 2 years ago.
(3) Could you have judged fairly whether he should have left in real time? Again, we seem to agree that Bowden wasn’t going to leave, because he "can’t foresee the future" and he "believe[d] in his own [proven] capabilities." You can judge his decisions in retrospect (hell, anybody can do that), but it isn’t what I’d call a fair judgment of the man himself (i.e., you can’t fairly say he put himself ahead of the university).
I think this is probably where we differ again. Sure, now in hindsight its much easier to say a change should be made. But I think I could’ve reasonably made the same determination 2+ years ago. Another poster on here who is a Bama/FSU fan made the statement that the begining of the end came when Richt left, and Jeff Bowden became the OC. I think he’s probably correct there, and that was a long time ago. And speaking of that move, I think that is another clear example of Bowden putting his own interests ahead of the program’s.
(4) "…That name wasn’t just a name." Again, if you have a problem with Bowden surviving longer on his reputation, I’d like to see what would happen if Coach Bryant had had a similar amount of mediocre years after what he had done. Answer: We would have kept him for a lot longer than we kept Dubose! And with good reason. This is one of the most obvious facts in the world. Is it entitlement? According to you, yes(?)… According to me, maybe, but it’s not a "bad" thing so long as it’s earned. It makes a whole lot of sense, actually (in football).
Funny you bring up Bryant in this discussion because as I’m sure you know you’re Bama history that very thing happened. Bama did start slipping and a percentage of the fan base started thinking (out loud) that maybe Bryant’s time was coming to end, and he should retire. As I’m sure you know, he went to the wishbone and won 2 more national championships. One might think this hurts my “Bowden shoudn’t have been given this much time to turn it around” argument somewhat but I think it actually supports it. Bryant made the necessary changes in order to turn things around and start winning big again. Bowden did not. Legend or not, it was clear a lot sooner than 2009 that he wasn’t going to do it.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
Okay, looks like we've reached...
a nice conclusion. I’m glad it paid off. I think we misunderstood each other. For a second there, I was so irritated (and it’s quite possible you were too). Haha. I will say that I don’t have much of an opinion on whether he should’ve been fired 2+ years ago, but I don’t think we can (fairly) judge him for not quitting. I wouldn’t quit either if I were him considering what happened to Coach Bryant after he retired.
by crimsontsunami on Dec 2, 2009 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
That's
a fair disagreement and decent arguments on both sides. I will close by saying that I do think Bowden should have stepped down or been fired prior to this year. But I am not surprised he held on and I do think he believed he could turn it around. But knowing Bowden wouldn’t leave on his own, FSU should have stepped in and given the nudge sooner.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
I suppose you think those are rhetorical questions.
Well, the answer is YES, the Stones should stop “rocking”, Dylan should retire, and Bobby Bowden hasn’t produced a good team in years. I agree that he should be allowed to leave coaching on his own terms. The problem (for FSU) is that he hasn’t done so. The Gators don’t seem to mind so much.
Yeah, I agree...
… and I love Dylan and the Stones, but even so at some point you do need to hang it up. Father Time fucks us all and you reach a point to where you can no longer get the job done.
Plus, it’s one thing for a musician to hang on too long, but a head coach? This isn’t even an issue of Bowden damaging his legacy. Who even really cares about his legacy, aside from his immediate family and a few diehard Bowden supporters? It has nothing to do with legacy, it’s about being a selfish ass and holding on for years and years past your prime — all the while you are running your program into the ground — just because you don’t want to go.
And honestly, guys, let’s cut the shit here… Bowden “retired” years and years ago. He hasn’t been functioning in a true head coach role in many years now, and the work product that he has put on the field has shown that too. And thus, in many ways, this isn’t even news. Bobby Bowden the head coach retired many years ago. It’s just now that Bobby Bowden the meaningless figurehead is retiring.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." -- Milton Friedman
by outsidethesidelines on Nov 30, 2009 8:17 PM CST up reply actions
Bowden's been slowly destroying . . .
FSU beginning with the hiring of Jeff Bowden. FSU has been down a coach — the most important coach, the head coach — compared to its opponents for a decade. And the past six or seven years he’s killed FSU in recruiting because teams have really used him to
negatively recruit. First Mickey Andrews and now Jimbo Fisher are the people that have prevented Bowden from completely destroying the FSU program.
by Lawboy on Nov 30, 2009 8:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Why should the Stones stop rocking (and yes they do rock)...
and why should Bob Dylan (who is making some of his best music now) retire? Because you think they’re not good enough? Do you think they care? They’re just doing what they love to do. And no, they were not rhetorical questions (ideally, they would be), because I understand that in our Celebrity-Obsessed Culture, people are going to say what they want to say about things they know nothing about. Musicians (even famous old ones) are people, too, and they do what they like to do regardless of public opinion. Alice Cooper, Metallica, Tom Petty, Dylan, Ray Davies and the Stones are still rocking today, even if you think they’re really crappy or look strange doing it. This obsession with age is simply dumb, but I expect it from a media culture increasingly lacking empathy for the simple feelings of other people. These Other People include the famous (and tragically old), some of whom, according to everybody “in the know,” must be ridiculed until they conform to our culture’s idiot values and just retire already.
Sorry, that’s just my view. It’s a pet peeve of mine. Simply put, sometimes I’m not pleasant. But then again, that goes without saying. Period, as OTS would say, which is nothing to say of what he would say if he were in my position.
by crimsontsunami on Dec 1, 2009 12:50 AM CST up reply actions
I get what you are saying...
… but it’s not an obsession with age, it’s an obsession with results. No one is saying that Bowden should retire because he is old, people are saying Bowden should retire because his program hasn’t been anything special in a decade now and he has currently “led” it into being a .500 ACC team. Age has nothing to do with it, Bowden should be forced out even if he were a 35-year old man.
I think the poster in the meltdown thread who said something to the effect of “If Bowden was a normal coach, he’d have been fired twice by now” really got it right. The only thing keeping him on is his name. Without that he is probably fired by 2003 or 2004, and fired again by the end of 2007, which is to say nothing of the current situation.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." -- Milton Friedman
by outsidethesidelines on Dec 1, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
I understand why he's out, and I have no opinion on it really...
If that’s for the best, then good. I’m happy for him. But I see nothing wrong with the way he’s handled it. He’s getting out of FSU for whatever reasons, be it pressure from others, his own initiative, or whatever. But years ago, he (and those in the FSU fan base idiotically hoping for his death now, not then) could not have foreseen the future. I’m sure he believed that he was going to continue helping FSU get to big places, and unfortunately for him and his team it didn’t work out. I don’t think he’s a “selfish ass” for it. The points at issue are the cheap shot at his age above, which I’ve already addressed, and the idea that he should’ve left a long time ago.
I don’t think any of us can judge fairly whether he should have left or not. It was up to him and his university. And sure, he almost certainly would’ve been fired in his later days if he had a different name, but that name wasn’t just a name. He earned his reputation through results, and if he should’ve been fired, then that’s the university’s fault for keeping him around, not his. It isn’t reasonable to expect someone to just step down when he believes in his own capabilities to get his team to the top, especially when he’s already proven his ability to do so.
by crimsontsunami on Dec 1, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
And if he wants to coach elsewhere...
I wish him the best of luck, unless he plays against us.
by crimsontsunami on Dec 1, 2009 1:45 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, they do rock.
On their front porch, in chairs especially designed for the purpose.
by rco3 on Dec 1, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Mock the Stones? Yes. Dylan retire? Yes.
And, so should Bobby
"Hollywood made a movie of my life. The film had me proposing to my wife on the football field. I would never misuse a football field that way." -Crazy Legs Hirsch
by Stuck in the Plains on Dec 1, 2009 8:57 AM CST up reply actions
Alabama probably...
…would have won two or three national titles, at least. He is one of the greatest coaches ever. His teams were absolutely dominant in the 90s and the early part of this decade. He would have recruited at an amazing level, and would have had enough of presence to actually keep certain people in check at Alabama.
Agree.
Bowden at Bama in the late 80’s would mean 2 or 3 more NC.
We just blew that one.
I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.
And we would have gotten rid of him
just in time to pick up Saban. Wow, did we miss out!
I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR
Very valid point.
And much like Carroll at USC, Bowden always seemed to manage a loss here and there that kept him from winning 2 or 3 more titles, which he should’ve done.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
Completely Wrong
He routinely beat the best coach in the SEC, Steve Spurrier, like a drum. His team would have dominated no matter what conference.
He
did own Spurrier. But then you get back to that old argument of the “grind” of the SEC vs. only having to play 2 or 3 big games a year, which was the case for many years of that dynasty.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
I for one am glad he didn't come to 'Bama.
They don’t call them the CrimiNoles for nothing. If the Fulmer Cup had existed before 2006, I wonder how many times they’d have won it. Seems like Bowden has always been lax on discipline when those off-the-field incidents occur, and their frequency at FSU is something I’m glad we didn’t have the chance to have here at ‘Bama. I know every program has incidents from time to time, but I can’t think of Florida State without Peter Warrick, Laveranues Coles and Sebastian Janikowski coming to mind. I’m sure some of the Gator lurkers can name others.
-D.
Legacies
I’ve never understood the outcry about legacies. People said Jordan would regret his time with the Wizards, it would tarnish people’s memories about him. I don’t believe that happened, and if it did, so what, life’s for living, not for preserving some legacy.
With that being said, I’m sure Bowden in hindsight could have done without the past 5 or so years. When you compare him to Tom Osbourne, there’s no doubt who had the better exit, regardless of legacy, and Osbourne seems to still be enjoying his life in both politics and how he’s currently involved with the Nebraska Program. It may be announced he’s leaving on his own terms, but having to fire your son, hire a coach in waiting and basicly being forced out is no way to spend the last years of your career. Not that I’m an expert on the matter, but it seems like he hung on in pursuit of a record at the expense of his family, the university, and most unfortunately the kids he was supposed to be coaching.
I remember seeing Jordan play
for the Birmingham Barons. Some people hold on to things because they just really enjoy it. It can cause some problems, but it can also be refreshing. In an age of TOs and A-Rods, it’s nice to see Brett Favre playing (great) football at 40, not because of money, but because he loves to play football. That’s not to say Bowden shouldn’t leave – I think it’s his time – but when they get new personnel, I think FSU should keep in mind that one of the things that made him work so well in the first place was passion.
by billycthulhu on Nov 30, 2009 11:41 PM CST up reply actions
Expect to see him . . .
at a Bama game in the very near future. If we get to the National Championship it wouldn’t surprise me if he showed up.
by Lawboy on Nov 30, 2009 7:35 PM CST via mobile reply actions
And according to Bobby...
… no decision has been made just yet.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." -- Milton Friedman
by outsidethesidelines on Nov 30, 2009 7:59 PM CST reply actions
It
wouldn’t surprise me in the least if he told people around him he was going to retire out of resentment, reflected on that decision, and then recanted.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
everyone knows it's been jimbo fisher running the show.
he’s an ‘OC’ but is on the sidelines, with the headphones on just like any other head coach. IMO the truth is, bobby has been taking the heat and jimbo now has one more year to figure out how to make FSU relevant again. if nothing better happens next year, people are going to realize that the problem was actually not bobby.
"You have to create 6 seconds of hell each play..."
Coach Nick Saban
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