Remember Mark Ingram, the recruit?
With all of the attention and publicity given to Mark Ingram the past several weeks during the Heisman race, personally I kept thinking back to two years ago when Ingram was a recruit coming out of Flint's Southwestern Academy. If you will recall correctly, despite having a pretty impressive offer list -- Ingram had offers from just about all of the Big Ten schools sans Ohio State and Michigan, plus other offers from the likes of Alabama, South Florida, Arizona State, and others -- Ingram wasn't a particularly highly-rated recruit.
Of the two major recruiting services, Rivals had the more generous evaluation of the two, pegging Ingram as a four-star recruit and the #17 athlete prospect in the country. Of course, though, even with that in mind, it's not like Rivals was particularly sold on Ingram. He was by no means considered an elite recruit -- they had him as the #189 overall prospect in the country -- and the mere fact that they evaluated him as an athlete tells you that they weren't particularly sold on the prospect of him even being a tailback at the next level. They weren't even certain that he wouldn't play linebacker or safety in college.
As for Scout.com, they were even more critical. I'll just let a quick screenshot of his profile tell the tale:

You are reading that right... a three-star tailback and the #58 tailback prospect in the country. And, believe it or not, that was actually after the supposed "experts" over at Scout.com dramatically increasing his rating in their final update in mid-December of 2007. Prior to that rating increase, Scout.com actually had Ingram rated as the #94 running back prospect in the country.
Even after that late bump, Scout.com still ended up with several, shall we say, interesting players rated higher than Ingram. Jerico Nelson, for example, now a defensive back at Arkansas, was rated higher as a tailback prospect than Ingram. The same thing goes for two prospects who signed with Georgia Southern and McNeese State (Franklin Green and Alonzo Landry, respectively). Auburn, in fact, despite having a terrible recruiting class, actually signed three different tailback prospects that Scout.com had rated higher than Ingram (Onterio McCalebb, Eric Smith, and Reggie Hunt) and would have had four had Enrique Davis not spurned the Tigers late in the process for Ole Miss. Scout.com also had fellow Alabama signee Chris Jordan rated significantly higher at tailback than Ingram, despite the fact that we largely recruited Jordan to play linebacker. And that is, of course, to say nothing of the prospects rated higher that have already turned out to be busts at the collegiate level, such as the likes of Darrell Scott, Aundre Dean, and Sam McGuffie.
But, in hindsight, is it fair to say that Ingram was one of those guys who just flew in under the radar, and one whose success, for whatever reason, could not have been reasonably expected? The answer to that question is clearly no. Looking back on Ingram as a prep prospect, everything in his background would objectively portend that he was destined to do big things at the next level.
To begin with, the raw production was certainly there as a prep prospect. He was a four-year varsity starter in Michigan's highest and most competitive football classification -- three years at Grand Blanc and his senior year at Southwestern -- and was never anything short of outright prolific. For his career he ended up with over 5,000 total yards and 65 touchdowns, and as a senior he even starred on defense to the effect of 30+ tackles and three interceptions. He was also the prototypical build to play the tailback position, and he clearly had speed to burn, as he showcased by running a 4.38 at a Michigan State camp, and by him being a nine time all-state selection in track. And, to boot, he was physically ready to play from day one, was a fine student in the classroom, and had no character issues. Furthermore, he even had the NFL lineage... his father was a former first round draft pick who played ten years in the NFL, and whose resume included a Super Bowl victory where he made one of the most memorable plays of the game.
So what more could you really ask for a recruit coming out of the prep level? Physically ready? Check. Long time starter? Check. Produced at high levels against very good competition? Check. All-state player? Check. Lots of sheer speed and athleticism? Check. Proper physical build to play his position? Check. A good student in the classroom? Check. A good character person off the field? Check. NFL lineage? Check. Impressive offer list? Check. If you were looking to objectively evaluate prospects, what more could you really want?
Yet, nevertheless, somehow, the #58 tailback prospect in the country.
I think what Ingram's "evaluation" -- as if that's not a joke in its own right -- really tells you is not so much about Ingram as much as it tells you about the supposed "experts" doing the evaluations. Specifically, it tells you that the "experts" are in many cases so utterly unqualified and incapable of doing what they purport to do that at times they literally cannot read the writing on the wall, and that many times outside factors that should have no effect whatsoever on a recruit's ultimate rating do in fact have an impact after all. The scary thing about situations like this is that they are probably more common than you would think. Ingram may be a bit of an anomaly, but not much of one.
Now, to be clear, that's not to say that recruiting rankings don't matter, because they clearly do. On in the individual level you tend to rate highly those prospects who are heavily recruited by the top programs -- offer lists, and not actual evaluations, are the biggest determining factor in how a recruit is ultimately rated -- and in the aggregate you rank teams based on how many of those prospects that they sign. And, thus, not too surprisingly, in the aggregate the recruiting rankings hold. You do see some teams significantly underachieve and overachieve, but generally speaking the teams that win on National Signing Day ultimately win on those Autumn Saturdays, and vice versa.
But though that is generally true for recruiting rankings as a whole, on the individual level, individual ratings are largely a crapshoot. It's a common occurrence to see the five-star be a complete and total bust, all the while the lowly-rated three-star turns into a bona fide star player. Keep that in mind we sign another middling three-star prospect. And when we sign another can't-miss five-star.
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Recruiting services...
…are fun to look at, but they are nothing more than educated guesses. They can’t measure heart, determination and to a lesser degree work ethic. Coupled with sheer athletic ability, these are the qualities that help make Mark Ingram a great player. Thank goodness we have a coaching staff that is very good at judging these things that can’t be measured.
This is a testament to Saban's
ability to scout and evaluate talent.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
by Bamagrad on Dec 14, 2009 10:45 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
specifically scout to program schemes, doesn't matter how talented they are if they don't fit your schemes
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Dec 14, 2009 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
+1
Belichick said he’d never met a better evaluater of defensive talent than Saban
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
by Thomas Walker Esq on Dec 14, 2009 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
keep in mind....
saban built this connection when he was ingram sr.‘s coach at michigan state. it’s not just having an eye for talent but building the type of relationships that allow you to attract that kind of talent down the road.
as much as people vilify the man, outside of miami, there are not a lot of burned bridges in coach saban’s past. and i’ll bet you anything that the fellow nfl coaches he knew from his time with the dolphins know damn well to listen to what he has to say.
and, along these lines, this is why i’m not freaking out over the attrition of assistant coaches this year. well, not completely anyway.
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
Any news of McElwainandSJS ? Or was it just another false alarm.
'Mark Ingram' is the Heisman Winner!
With a program of
SJS size..if he does take it, im about 100% sure he’ll be around for the NCG.
"The goal is to be a champion," Saban said. "I didn’t say to win a championship. I just said be a champion. That’s our goal here. That’s what we want to do."- Nick Saban
I understand if he wants a head coach job( but not SJS) but PLEASE wait til into January!
'Mark Ingram' is the Heisman Winner!
as I said in another fanpost
i have never heard of a coach taking a new job where his first game is against his old team
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
by Thomas Walker Esq on Dec 14, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
less there's some animosity there
for not hiring him as head coach. Don’t know of any.
What u say makes sense tho.
'Mark Ingram' is the Heisman Winner!
I think we all knew
last season after seeing Ingram run behind Coffee that he was going to be special, but I don’t think anyone realistically expected a “Heisman” type year.
Kind of makes ya wonder what to expect, or rather what surprises are in store for Trent?
Your temper brings dishonor to my happy mooshu palace.
Actually...
Kirk herbstreit made the prediction at the beginning of the year… The question was… What is one unknown player that will be a household name at the end of the year? He said, “mark ingram”. So he saw it coming… To an extent.
by tidefanstuckatlsu on Dec 14, 2009 7:00 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
another wildcard in the whole process
is going to a school w/a coaching staff who properly utilizes a player’s skillset. we all know the story about tebow falling in love w/mike shula and being brokenhearted when he chose florida. and tebow was able to become one of the great players in college football history in urban meyer’s offense. that said, does anyone think he would’ve been anywhere near that in shula’s offense? would shula have had any idea what to do with a qb with his talent?
further, how well do you think mark would do in urban meyer’s offense?
shula did (does?) have a rep as a developer of QB talent.
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
unfair evaluation
The offensive problems from the years under Shula stemmed from an offensive line that could never come together.
Brodie owes his unspectacular NFL career (including the chance to be the starter in KC) to Mike Shula.
Lee Corso: How would you describe tailgating at Alabama?
Kirk Herbstreit: Barbecue and Ralph Lauren
by animalcracker on Dec 14, 2009 6:23 PM CST up reply actions
Stars are nice to look at and pound your chest to. When we look at the players that Saban recruits
you can see where that particular player fits in his scheme. However when a Saban recruit has four or five stars you can’t help but think great things are ahead. The only so called let down I’ve witnessed so far in Sabans recruiting classes is BJ Scott. Yet Scott has redshirted and we still may see great things from him as a DB.
Your temper brings dishonor to my happy mooshu palace.
There are a few 5*s that haven’t yet contributed much, but still have a lot of career left (Fluker, Love, and you might even add Kirkpatrick to the list even though he appears to be headed for greatness. I’d put Scott into this group.) Jerrel Harris was a 4*, but had some really high expectations that haven’t fulfilled yet. Having said that, the only highly touted recruit from Saban that I can think of that the book is closed on as a big disappointment is Alonzo Lawrence.
Ingram was actually a 3 star originally.
They changed his rating to a 4 midway through this season. Rivals does this when they miss out on big-time talent like Ingram. They did the same thing to Chris Douglas-Roberts from Memphis.
"I may look like an alien, but I'm good at football" Phillip Sims
by therealphilsims on Dec 14, 2009 11:44 AM CST reply actions
I really enjoyed your article about the recruiting of Mark Ingram.
Like so many things in sports and life in general, ratings, rankings, etc. are pretty subjective and in many cases, quite different than projected.
As a BAMA fan, I never considered the Heisman Award being that important simply because our philosophy has always been about team first. At the same time, I was very excited and proud for Mark when his selection was announced Saturday evening. Yet it was his emotional acceptance that I felt very honored to be a part of the Crimson Nation. Like many previous Heisman winners he gave credit to God, family, team, coaches and all those that were instrumental in his development as a football player and human being.
Mark’s comments were from the heart and confirmed what most folks really believe; the award may be for the best college FB player but it still takes a team effort for anyone to be in a position to be considered. Regardless of a team’s recruiting rankings, it still boils down to how those players mesh as a unit. Needless to say CNS knows how to develop a winning program.
How do they figure this crap
Glad u wrote this cause I was lookin this morning, wondering bout our soon to be kickin game. Scout has Foster as a 4* and Williams as a 3*. Rivals has them both as 2 stars. What the heck? Is one org. from one part of the country and the other from another?
Our overall ranking is better with Scout because of this.
'Mark Ingram' is the Heisman Winner!
kickers rarely get placed above 3 stars, no matter how good they are
Rivals tends to keep almost off of them at 2. Scout is more liberal with their rankings
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
by Thomas Walker Esq on Dec 14, 2009 12:10 PM CST reply actions
I think Foster is also a good linebacker
may have some to do with it too
'Mark Ingram' is the Heisman Winner!
Foster plays starting MLB for
Southlake Carroll (the Hoover of Dallas). That’s a valuable asset for our coverage unit. Williams is a big boy too, and he started at H-back for his high school’s single wing offense
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
by Thomas Walker Esq on Dec 14, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
Positioning is significant factor with ranking recruits.
I can imagine Ingram not grading out as well designated as “athlete” since that often signifies a future WR, QB, DB, or S. But I never understood Scouts ranking of Ingram that year. I recall ESPN’s recruiting services had Ingram higher than Rivals or Scout as a running back. But boy did they drop the ball with Hightower (probably somewhat due to listing him as a DE instead of LB). It looks like a few of this years’ prospects, Blake Sims and Deon Belue, will probably perform better than their positional rankings suggest. Sims is listed as QB by some, but will probably end up as reciever and Belue is listed as athlete but looks to be a DB/ Return guy. It seems to be a common mistake since a high school’s needs often have guys playing out of their most natural position and it’s harder to evaluate them as a result. I think more weight should be given to what position the college to which they have committed or are likely to commit is recruiting them to play.
Keep that in mind we sign another middling three-star prospect.
Um..can you say Dameco Ryans?!
"The goal is to be a champion," Saban said. "I didn’t say to win a championship. I just said be a champion. That’s our goal here. That’s what we want to do."- Nick Saban
Specifically, it tells you that the “experts” are in many cases so utterly unqualified and incapable of doing what they purport to do that at times they literally cannot read the writing on the wall, and that many times outside factors that should have no effect whatsoever on a recruit’s ultimate rating do in fact have an impact after all.
This is a great point. But ill take it another level..
How many HS athletes are out there? How many legitimate D-1 seniors are out there? How about how many JUCO guys who want to make the jump? To try to “evaluate” and “rank” these players and believe you got it right..is insane. Just like picking ONE player out of the 1000’s who play college football and try to name him the “Most Outstanding” is even more impossible..
"The goal is to be a champion," Saban said. "I didn’t say to win a championship. I just said be a champion. That’s our goal here. That’s what we want to do."- Nick Saban
Prolly need to throw development
under coaching staffs in there somewhere too
'Mark Ingram' is the Heisman Winner!
Maybe those barners
are on to something with all that 3* talk and coachem’ up attitude……………..nah.
Auburn fans are like slinkys... not really good for anything but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
It is interesting to look at, for instance take 3 of the best young RBs in the NFL:
Adrian Peterson: 5 star highly recruited world beater
Maurice Jones-Drew: 4 star, rated #1 all purpose back
Chris Johnson: 2 star(!) and absolutely no big time offers (he’s the NFL’s leading rusher, in case you don’t watch football on Sunday)
by Alabama ManDance on Dec 14, 2009 12:57 PM CST reply actions
Recruiting is not
an exact science. If it were UT would have won 3 or 4 NC. And, Spurrier would have never won much at UF.
I think though on Ingram the recruiting services just missed it. Plus Ingram fits good in Saban’s system and might not fit as good in other systems which might be why he was not as high up. But, still they missed it on him.
They did however get it right on Trent Richardson.
I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.
Blake Sims is currently flying under the radar so to speak in this recruiting class.
Your temper brings dishonor to my happy mooshu palace.
I think that is because...
Like he said… The more teams that recruit players… The higher they are ranked… He has been a firm bama commit for a while.
by tidefanstuckatlsu on Dec 14, 2009 7:09 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
The biggest problem I have with these recruiting services is inconsistency.
Rivals has a guy rated a 4-star, then Scout has him as a 3-star, ESPNU has him as an Under Armor all-american 5-star. This crap makes it hard to project the strength of a class. The good thing for Bama fans is we have Saban. He’s the great equalizer, it’s an unsaid that he is the king of finding and coaching up talent.
Got Saban? (little debbie oatmeal cream pie crumbs all around the mouth)
Your temper brings dishonor to my happy mooshu palace.
That can come from the camp the recruit attends.
If he is only able to make the scouts camp and preforms well, they usually have him rated higher than other services. Some kids only attend the nike camps and the same with rivals. Then of course they just miss on some.
Auburn fans are like slinkys... not really good for anything but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
well technically
ESPN is Scout…but i get your point.
"The goal is to be a champion," Saban said. "I didn’t say to win a championship. I just said be a champion. That’s our goal here. That’s what we want to do."- Nick Saban
no
ESPN is Scouts, Inc. They have no relation to Scout.com or Rivals.com
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
by Thomas Walker Esq on Dec 14, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
then WTF
thats stupid..
"The goal is to be a champion," Saban said. "I didn’t say to win a championship. I just said be a champion. That’s our goal here. That’s what we want to do."- Nick Saban
easy way to remember is rivals site is bamaonline.com,
scout site is bamamag.com, and espn’s scouts, inc is crimson confidential.com
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
by Thomas Walker Esq on Dec 14, 2009 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
its still bullshit...
How can ESPN get away with such blatant stealing of another sites name?
"The goal is to be a champion," Saban said. "I didn’t say to win a championship. I just said be a champion. That’s our goal here. That’s what we want to do."- Nick Saban
As well as the best band in the world:
Widespread Panic! (sarcasm can be difficult to convey through typing)
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
by Thomas Walker Esq on Dec 14, 2009 7:24 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
i will not malign a band who has penned a song honoring the great Love Tractor.
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
Phil Steele
I sort of like the way Phil Steele views the services. He takes the average of everyone’s ranking, and uses that. There is less potential for bias. So, if you get a player (Julio Jones), who is mostly thought of as the best player at his position you know you have someone special.
There is a lot of bias in these services, especially now that they have their own All-American games. You will see someone who declines an invitation to go to one over another get significant declines are raises in their profile. Not sure if that is a predetermined bias, or if you subconciously want the best player at your event.
I can never listen to that fool
since he picked Ole Miss to win the West as well picking them to beat us the week of our game just to hold out hope that he wouldn’t get egg in his face.
“5 of my 9 sets of power rankings call for a 12-0 season” – Phil Steele, regarding Ole Miss 2009
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
by Thomas Walker Esq on Dec 14, 2009 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
matt hinton (dr. saturday nee SMQ)
has done some analysis of this as well and come up with a similar assessment as steele.
Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.
You never know how a kid will do until he puts on the pads and hits the field. It's a team sport.
Like Mark said in his Heisman speech. “I want to thank the Offensive Line” players with good to great teammates will have better shots at great success.
Barret Jones 3-star=Freshman All-American
Your temper brings dishonor to my happy mooshu palace.
A thought came to me
about Ingram winning…Maybe im wrong, but i don’t think Alabama spent much time or money hyping Ingram…Unlike other lame schools who take out billboards to hype their guys..all Alabama had to do was win…
I just find this extremely ironic..
"The goal is to be a champion," Saban said. "I didn’t say to win a championship. I just said be a champion. That’s our goal here. That’s what we want to do."- Nick Saban
no, the school
did not actively campaign or send out publicity packets….that’s what we have the espn hype machine in our pockets for
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
by Thomas Walker Esq on Dec 14, 2009 4:14 PM CST up reply actions
BTW..
Todd posted it as a joke the other day…but heres a link to the site where you can buy the Tebow Cries For Your Sins shirt.
"The goal is to be a champion," Saban said. "I didn’t say to win a championship. I just said be a champion. That’s our goal here. That’s what we want to do."- Nick Saban
I'd say Scout and the other recruiting services
pretty much got it right. I love the way the kid runs with heart and all, but he’s nothing special. Given the opportunity and system this year with Alabama, most back at top schools would have done the same.
He’ll be a nice 2nd stringer in the NFL one day a la Ahmad Bradshaw, Chester Taylor, etc.
You may want to rephrase this...
he’s nothing special.
…but only ‘cause it’s bullsh*t….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Dec 21, 2009 11:46 PM CST reply actions

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