This is why I hate the NFL...and our justice system..
by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 8:45 AM CDT
Email
PrintI know this isn't Bama related but its a good topic for discussion...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4262751
After Stallworth spent the night drinking at a bar in Miami Beach's Fountainebleau hotel, police said he hit Reyes, a construction crane operator who was rushing to catch a bus after finishing his shift at about 7:15 a.m.
Stallworth told police he flashed his lights in an attempt to warn Reyes, who was not in a crosswalk when he was struck.
Stallworth had a blood-alcohol level of .126 after the crash, well above Florida's .08 limit. Stallworth stopped after the crash and immediately told officers he had hit Reyes. Police estimated Stallworth was driving about 50 mph in a 40 mph zone.
This is the so called "sentence" that this man will "face" after killing someone....
Stallworth faced 15 years in prison. According to the plea agreement, Stallworth needs to serve only 24 days of his 30-day sentence. Murphy agreed to give Stallworth credit for the one day he already served, April 2, which was the day of his arrest and booking. In addition, Stallworth received an additional five days of credit because of a Florida state statute stating anyone who is sentenced to 30 days (besides civil, contempt, drug treatment and house arrest cases) automatically gets five days' credit time served for every 30 days, spokesperson Janelle Hall of the Miami Dade County Corrections Department told Naqi.
After his release from jail, Stallworth must serve two years of house arrest and spend eight years on probation.
Stallworth must also undergo drug and alcohol testing, will have a lifetime driver's license suspension and must perform 1,000 hours of community service. Lyons said after five years, Stallworth could win approval for limited driving for reasons such as employment.
What a freakin joke! How many days in jail did Vick spend after killing dogs?...
Lyons said the plea agreement will allow Stallworth to resume his football career.
NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said the league is reviewing the matter for possible disciplinary action. Stallworth could face suspension without pay for some games this year.
Oh wow! Lets not be TOO hard on him...after all..he did just kill someone...
To me this shows just how silly our justice system is and that these so called "celebrities" can get away with anything..including murder...
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$$$ talks in the justice system
if he was joe sixpack, he’d do years behind bars. His money bought him better lawyers and therefore an easier sentence. The way the world works, I’m afraid. If I could think of a better plan, I would, but everything I think of limits freedom rather than promotes it. In other words, I can’t think of anything which will allow the poor criminal to serve less time, just ways to not allow the rich one from hiring the best lawyers, which I can’t see as a good thing……
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant
The difference in quality between an expensive defense attorney and a public defender isn’t nearly as great as you seem to assume it is. The reason we hear about rich people getting off easy is because they’re the ones that get reported on. When Joe Sixpack gets arrested for vehicular manslaughter and walks away with the same punishment, he doesn’t make the news.
im sure you are correct
but that doesn’t make either situation right…If you drink and drive and while doing so kill a person. Your freedom should be taken away. No amount of money should keep you out of jail.
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
Why do you assume money kept him out of jail?
by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions
i said no amount..sorry if that wasn't clear.
that goes both ways. I don’t believe that either poor or the rich should get away with it.
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
But if it wasn’t money that kept him out of jail, then isn’t this particular case irrelevant to your main argument?
by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Im not saying it either way
I am saying that i have a brain…eyes and a conscious…they might be fooling me but its not a stretch to say that he got off cause he’s a somewhat high profile NFL player.
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
But you’re saying it with no evidence other than his plea and his status, so all you’re really doing is looking to confirm a belief you already hold, not actually find out what the situation is or square your belief with reality in any way. That’s pretty weak.
but you're acting like
money had nothing to do with it ! at all! Its as if you think his punishment was just.
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
I don’t believe that money had anything to do with it and I’ve seen no evidence to the contrary.
Whether or not his punishment was just is a different question entirely. It also depends on whether we’re talking about legal justice or moral justice. Frankly, nobody in this thread has sufficient knowledge of the case to really argue either of them.
ok pete you're right we
have no direct evidence but we have a right to our opinion. Many of the opinions we all make throughout the day are made from past experience or what information we have in front of us.
In this case, we see a NFL athlete, who makes millions, basically walk away after killing someone with his car while driving drunk. I don’t care about the “evidence” and i don’t need it to be able to my opinion that his celebrity status played some role in this. (call it money or just his name)
You might have first hand knowledge of our justice system treating joe blow in the same way but we also have personal experiences….of seeing our friends get much worse punishment for far less of a crime…we have also watched HUNDREDS of celebs get away with everything and that now includes murder.
I understand what you are saying and i totally respect the fact that you know a lot about law but our justice system is a joke…and im sorry if you don’t agree.
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
Oh no you didn't...
"Jay Jacobs can't go to the bathroom without Bobby Lowder's permission" - Paul Finebaum
by GumptownTiger on Jun 17, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
You certainly are entitled to your opinion
…however poorly-informed and logically void it is.
I don’t care about the "evidence"
You don’t say?
dude what is your prob
with putting people down…
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
It’s not an insult, it’s just a fact. You admitted as much. You don’t want to hear the evidence or the facts, you don’t care about the reality of the situation, you’re not interested in anything but pumping a “ZOMG, OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM SUX” agenda.
Your opinion is intentionally (and militantly) ill-informed, and what evidence you do have is used in a logically flawed way . . . calling it like I see it, here.
I’m sure you’re a fine person, and there are lots of legitimate criticisms of our justice system, but you have yet to raise one that has any basis in fact.
You might as well be saying that our justice system sucks because we have never convicted a single martian.
im saying
that i don’t need facts to determine if this so called punishments is justice…I don’t care how he acted…he was driving over the legal limit and while doing so kllled a man…
Im not sure why you dont think that getting 24 days in jail for this isn’t extreme…BS…
I am saying that a justice system that allows this…is a joke..sorry. Unless facts come out later that states he was in fact NOT intoxicated or that the guy intentionally jumped in front of his car, then the only opinion I can make is that he drove drunk and killed someone…
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
i don’t need facts to determine if this so called punishments is justice
I’m not going to lie — I’m surprised you can actually write this with a straight face. Facts are the ONLY thing you need.
The bottom line is that the guy COULD have jumped in front of his car (or the equivalent of it). We don’t know. There’s nothing inherently evil about drinking.
Driving is risky, no matter how carefully you do it. Everything you do that is NOT driving (changing the radio station, eating, thinking about work, etc) increases the risk that you’ll be in an accident.
In any traffic accident there are tons of variables. Would Stallworth have killed the guy if he had been doing the speed limit instead of 10 over? Would the guy have died if he had crossed at a cross-walk, with the light? What about if Stallworth had blown .075?
Life is full of facts, to think that you don’t need them to form an opinion… just wow.
Pete,
…I completely agree with your assessment…but I think Barbara Billingsley would think you are being a little hard on the Beaver here. This is just a blog, there are no debating awards here. :) It’s all good. Roll Tide!
well im no beaver
but i have been called a bear.
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
cause you seem to
be walking on a mighty high horse…you certainly in this situation have formed an opinion and so have I…how is your informed and built on logic and mine not? Cause by what i have read from you, you also have no facts about this case…so who’s to say im wrong and you’re right?
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
You’re wrong because you’re making determinations in absence of fact. I simply pointing out that it’s difficult to really know what’s going on and I’m refraining from judgment.
I’m not “right”, because I haven’t taken any sort of stand except to say that we should know things before we jump to conclusions.
so you make
NO opinions without having facts in front of you…
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
Not if I can help it, and I certainly don’t brag about how few facts I need, or how many I don’t want to hear about.
then your not getting my
point….and this is all pointless….im saying in THIS case…i love facts and i really like evidence but in THIS case why are they needed for me to form an opinion? He got in his car…drove while drinking…and hit a man and killed him….what other facts do i need to determine whether or not this PUNISHMENT was just??
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
You need to know whether or not the drinking had any impact on the end result.
What if we find out in a week that the guy wrote a suicide note, saying he was going to jump out in front of a car on the highway? Still think Stallworth should get the chair?
hmm good point
i just don’t see how you can separate the two. If he was drunk, then his judgment was impaired..it might be just a HUGE coincidence but i find that highly unlikely..
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been crossing a busy, multi-lane road and I’ve started across it before all of the cars had passed where I was basically “timing” my walk so that I would cross a lane just after the last car had cleared me…
…if Reyes was doing that, and Stallworth flashed his lights to say “Hey, watch it, buddy” but Reyes interpreted it as “I’m going to stop and let you cross”, well . . . splat. Not because Stallworth was drunk, but because of a miscommunication between a car going 50mph and a jay-walker.
Is that what happened? I don’t know, but bizarre things happen all the time, and it’s important to remember that there’s a human-being on BOTH sides of the case — just as Reyes deserves justice if Stallworth was at fault, Stallworth deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Sometimes accidents just happen and there’s little that can be done to stop them. I don’t know if this was one of them, but I have a hard time believing that the prosecutor would want to give a high-profile case undeservedly preferential treatment.
I thought...
…that if you get into a car and drive drunk you’re kind of forfeiting the “benefit of the doubt”, similar to an open container law. Even though it may be the passengers open container, the driver is responsible for it. Just a ?
thanks for the insight pete
i will say however, and admit i dont have all the facts either. but this reeks of a double standard in my opinion. a guy i knew in high school, and who was a friend of my wife is currently serving 10 years for vehicular manslaughter. he was drunk, crashed on the freeway and killed his passenger. they were both drunk and it was actually the passengers car. the drivers story was that they were both drunk, but the passenger was more drunk and asked him to drive so he did. toxicology reports backed that up, the dead passenger had a higher BAC than the surviving driver. but he’s serving 85% of a 10 year sentence thanks to Az’s “truth in sentencing” laws. he killed one of his best friends and get 10 years. Stallworth admits seeing the guy in the road well enough to flash his lights at him, but not well enough to make a decision to avoid hitting him? sounds like he was drunk and could have done more to prevent the accident, and you Pete, are just flat out lying if you cant admit that money buys a better legal defense. if not, then i suggest you to talk to the folks at the Southern Poverty Law Center.
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jun 17, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Different states have different laws. Comparing DUI sentences between two different states. It’s not a “double standard”, it’s two different states with different sets of laws.
Stallworth admits seeing the guy in the road well enough to flash his lights at him, but not well enough to make a decision to avoid hitting him? sounds like he was drunk and could have done more to prevent the accident
I’m not going to fight this fight again. Read the rest of the thread. There are plenty of situations in which your supposition is false.
As for the SPLC, I respect their work, but you’ll be hard-pressed to find them saying that public defenders are inferior to private defense attorneys. They work to cure injustice where it exists.
word.
those are all really good points, except that i’m pretty sure the SPLC will point to a correlation between being poor/having a PD/getting a tougher sentence vs. being rich or famous/ having a high priced powerful attorney/ and getting off scott free.
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jun 18, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
a quick google of "class disparity in criminal justice system"
returns a multitude of results. “racial disparity in sentencing” also returns a bunch of good stuff from folks like the ACLU and SPLC… and you’re right correlation does not equal causation. however you can clearly tell that i didn’t say that it did. I pointed to the correlation of being poor and not getting light sentences. aside from the myriad of reports published by legal organizations and essays from legal students on this subject, i would think simply being a politically aware person would grant you additional anecdotal evidence to conclude for yourself that there is something to this unexplained trend. simply put, the darker your skin and the smaller your bank account, the greater your preponderance of receiving a more severe sentence than if you were rich and white.
just curious Pete, are you a trial attorney? for some reason thats the impression i have, not sure if thats grounded in reality though… (i’m thinking that if you are a trial lawyer, then perhaps you’re just being contrarian for the fun of it and to help keep our rhetorical skills sharp. but if you are a trial lawyer and sincerely think that a persons racial and economic background doesn’t impact their quality of defense as well as the level of sentence they’ll receive; well then, you must be a really poor attorney.)
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jun 19, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
i just implied correlation equaled causation there didn’t i? i should have said “isn’t more likely to impact” than “doesn’t”
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jun 19, 2009 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
I
have a few attorneys in my family, my aunt is a public defender by choice. She is extremely smart and capable. Her husband (my uncle) is a doctor so she doesn’t really need to earn a large income. She likes being a public defender because she has a lot of freedom in picking her cases. Usually she’ll only take the ones that interest her. Trust me, if I got into trouble I’d hire her in a second.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
by Bens4vcobra on Jun 17, 2009 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Let me get this straight.
If OJ had a public defender, he would have still gotten off for murder? If OJ was not OJ, he would be in jail for life for murder. If not for his money and fame, then tell me why he got off. Race had something to do with it, but those lawyers that he could afford also played a huge role.
If OJ had a public defender he very well could have gotten off. There was also no guarantee that Cochran was going to get a not guilty. My point is not that there aren’t very good private defense attorneys, my point is that hourly rate and quality are not as strongly correlated as most people believe.
by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
OJ = don't frame a guilty a man.
I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I
think OJ got off because the jury were morons. Anybody who’s seen interviews with any of them know what I’m talking about.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
dude it was the glove man..
if the glove don’t fit…acquit….
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
That
jury did not want to convict OJ, had nothing to do with his money or lawyers but his fame. Just my uninformed take.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
Actually....
It was the Chewbacca defense.
If Chewbacca, a 7 foot wookie, lives on Endor with all dem little 3 foot Ewoks, then it doesn’t make sense! Therefore, you must acquit.
by Bama philosophe on Jun 18, 2009 12:35 AM CDT up reply actions
you've obviously never
had a public defender represent you in a legal matter have you?
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jun 17, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m a law school graduate. I’ve worked with them, worked opposite them, and have a number of friends on both sides of that divide.
Public defenders get an undeserved bad rap because criminal defense attorneys, in general, have the difficult job of telling people things they don’t want to hear. Couple that with a preconceived notion that the PD is bad to start with and the fact that so many people think they know how the law is supposed to work from reading the news and watching TV shows, and you end up with a whole lot of unfounded reinforcement of a bad stereotype.
I proudly...
defended Native Americans in all three tiers (fed/tribe/state), and I can tell you one thing…the workload is ridiculous, but a “professional criminal defense” attorney differs from a PD in very few respects, and none of them have fuck all to do with intellect: Funding, their clientele, and the ability to reject/cherry pick clients are the big ones.
I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions
You also just described...
…the major respects in which public and private schools differ.
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree
based on personal experience. I friend of mine got a DUI and asked her PD if there was anything she could do to not lose her license. He said that if the police followed proper procedure, then no, there was nothing she could do.
Of course, a month later a rich celeb got pulled over far more over the limit and got off with a minimal amount of community service and no loss of license. Why? As far as I can tell, better lawyers.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant
Your disagreement isn’t based on personal experience, it’s based on second hand information of one case and virtually no information about another.
You have no idea if the police followed proper procedure for the celeb. You have no idea what the specifics of your friend’s case were that she didn’t share with you.
You’re also cherry-picking one PD, who might actually suck completely independent of the fact that he/she is a public defender.
If the PD did suck...
then my friend had no recourse. QED.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant
She could’ve requested a different PD. And even if she didn’t have any recourse that doesn’t mean that all PDs suck, or that having money would’ve made her life any easier.
Esquire...
you make good points, but I don’t think this is a hill you want to die on. I know that I don’t.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant
It’s not even really a debate.
1. Your friend could have just been screwed.
2. Even if this was a failing of the PD, one bad PD doesn’t imply that all PDs are bad.
3. Even if this was a failing of the PD, one bad PD doesn’t imply that all private attorneys are better.
4. You’re making a comparison to a case we know next-to-nothing about.
Public Defenders are attorneys. Like all sub-sets of attorneys, some of them are good, some of them are bad. They all have different amounts of experience and in different fields. If your friend believes she was horribly wronged, she can file an appeal on the basis of ineffective assistance of counsel.
Thing is, you’re not entitled to the BEST defense, you’re entitled to a GOOD defense.
The system is imperfect. Trying the same case with the same facts and same attorneys in front of two different juries can produce two opposite results. That’s life.
That results for cases that APPEAR to be similar aren’t always the same is a function of many factors, not the least of which is the fact that cases that appear to be similar often times are very, very different.
There are rich people who have “gotten off easy”… but that’s largely because our system lets LOTS of people off “easy”. I don’t like it, but I typically find the complaints of pampered stars to be an old wive’s tale: widely and firmly believed, but lacking in evidentiary support.
Also...
It’s my personal belief that someone else getting off easier for the same crime is a bit of a red herring. You either deserved or did not deserve the punishment you received, regardless of what someone else got for the “same” thing.
I feel exactly the opposite about NCAA sanctions, but that’s because we’re all competing, so “fairness” is a different animal in that case.
And, ummm, the law is like every other profession.
Normative. Really great on one tail, really terrible on the other, and the middling 67% are perfectly competent and solid. Apocrypha doesn’t sell.
I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions
The term...
…“justice system” just cracks me up.
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I think this is what Pete Holiday is saying, and I am 100% in agreement with him. . .
. . . .this country is not built on a system of justice, this country is built on a system of laws.
Comer4tide to Nico2.0: "How come I've never heard of any of your random songs?"
Todd to Comer: "Because if you had, he wouldn't listen to it. BOOM. Roasted."
Nico to Todd: "Shouldn't you be off voguing somewhere?"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 17, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
That, and...
…that we don’t even know if this was a moral injustice because we have no idea if Stallworth could’ve avoided the accident even if he had been sober.
This might just be an example of Darwin Award nominee.
:- )
Hearin’ ya buddy! (Darwin Award nominee! and WINNER !!!!)
Comer4tide to Nico2.0: "How come I've never heard of any of your random songs?"
Todd to Comer: "Because if you had, he wouldn't listen to it. BOOM. Roasted."
Nico to Todd: "Shouldn't you be off voguing somewhere?"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 17, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not...
…weighing in on the Stallworth case, ‘cause I don’t know or care much about it. I’m just saying that calling our legal ‘system’ a ‘justice system’ is funny.
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I
think in general, the term “system” is way over used.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
I agree, also. . . .
. . .“at the end of the day. . .” and my all-time major pet-peeve for the redundance of " . . irregardless",
Comer4tide to Nico2.0: "How come I've never heard of any of your random songs?"
Todd to Comer: "Because if you had, he wouldn't listen to it. BOOM. Roasted."
Nico to Todd: "Shouldn't you be off voguing somewhere?"
by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 17, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not about "justice"...ever.
no institution of higher legal learning is called a School of Justice…it’s a school of law, and the discipline and the system is a legal one. Sometimes justice prevails, sometimes not. But remember this: Who ultimately promulgates these laws? Lobbyists Lawyers. Fair shakes are not made and brokered in the civil or criminal code; they are made and brokered by the millions of grunts (paralegals, support staff, attorneys, judges, appellate courts, civic demand) who make the system (or attempt to do so) a fair one.
I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I've never...
…heard anyone refer to judges as grunts before.
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions
ever worked for one?
Ridiculous caseloads…
The law = you’re not doing it right if you don’t work 7 days and/or 70+ a week :)
I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 18, 2009 5:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I've driven...
…in Miami a few times…and I must say…it’s crazy. There are people darting from every direction into the street on bikes, walking, pushing carts, with no regard to red lights or traffic flow. You have to be on your toes. (It’s like playing frogger in reverse) It was dumb of Stallworth to drink and drive…..and even more idiotic to drink and drive on a street with heavy pedestrian traffic.
Leonard Little killed a lady
and I don’t think served any jail time.
Vick gets 2 years for dog fighting (which is bad, don’t get me wrong), and this guy kills a person and gets a month
If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.
My point exactly
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
Ah
but you’re dealing with feds in the case of Vick. No parole; and, unless you’ve got something to really offer them, they’re not playing ball with you.
I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
ok
good point but its still messed up.
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
So are we saying
that if DUI offenders who kill people with cars were prosecuted by the feds they’d get a just punishment more often than they currently do? (For the record, I’m not saying they don’t currently get a just punishment, necessarily; it just seems that this is the point you’re making) If so, let’s make it a federal crime!
I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR
The Feds don’t generally deal with small-potatoes crimes like DUIs. A federal prosecution is a ridiculously expensive thing and the states don’t really need the US Attorney’s help prosecuting crimes like DUIs.
I understand all that
my point was that it seemed you were saying that punishments are more or less just depending on whether or not they’re tried in local court or federal court. If that’s the case, I want the justice.
And, for what it’s worth, there might be a few dead people who would object to DUIs being “small-potatoes crime.”
I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR
Punishments depend on a huge number of factors. Punishments aren’t more harsh from the Feds because the they’re tougher on crime, they’re more harsh because they deal with more serious crimes.
When you compare a run-of-the-mill DUI to the kinds of cases the US Attorney normally handles, there’s no other way to describe it.
DUI...
…in and of itself is a small-potatoes crime. Injuring someone while DUI is different.
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions
No part of a DUI, injury or no, is as serious as the crimes that the US Attorneys see day in and day out.
That’s not saying that DUI isn’t a problem, or that as a whole DUIs are no big deal… but when we’re talking about some guy driving around drunk versus child predators and serial killers?
Yeah, Bubba’s DUI — even if he hurt or killed someone during it — is small potatoes.
DUI a big deal
I’ve had two family members killed by drunk drivers. I for one feel that DUI should be treated much more strongly than they are now.
If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.
I've always felt
People that can’t sit their rear at home and get sloppy, should get stiffer penalties.
The
Feds have to have jurisdiction I’m sure. They can’t just go in and prosecute any case in any state they want to (and wouldn’t want them to have that power). Something has to trigger the authority of the Feds such as someone committing a crime and fleeing accross state lines. That is unless TV and movies has lied to me.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
More or less, yeah. Federal criminal law the the FBI/US Attorney’s jurisdiction is an interesting thing that I don’t fully comprehend and which is far beyond the scope of a comment here.
Blach...Commerce Clause was NEVER meant to go that far...EVAH. OMGZ!111
I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Commerce Clause has been trumped up and abused
at least since the Great Depression…
Government: We don’t care if that extra acreage of wheat is for personal use, we have set a limit to how much wheat each farmer can grow so tough sh!… If you don’t like it sue us, oh wait that’s already happened.
Damn Straight!
Fuck that wack-ass Wickard v. Filburn shit!
by Bama philosophe on Jun 18, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions
a moment of silence for Lopez, please
I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 18, 2009 5:27 AM CDT up reply actions
I suspect that the commentariat on this tread doesn’t know anything about the case beyond what was reported in the news. Jumping to conclusions based on news reports of legal cases is an exceedingly bad idea because it is literally impossible for a news reporter to both a) comprehend the legal issues of the case and b) work all of the relevant facts into an article.
To cherry-pick one example, we have no idea whether or not the BAC evidence was actually admissible. DUI law is complicated. If there was some problem with its collection that made its admissibility questionable, the prosecutor could’ve been staring down the barrel of a Not Guilty verdict and chose, instead, to get SOMETHING out of the case.
A lifetime driver’s license suspension is not a trivial matter, either, folks.
Maybe he shoulda
tapped his brakes as opposed to flashing his lights.
"Jay Jacobs can't go to the bathroom without Bobby Lowder's permission" - Paul Finebaum
Drive slow, homie...
You need to pump your brakes and drive slow, homie.
by Bama philosophe on Jun 17, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
My assumption...
….this only my assumption…so take it for what its worth. Having driven in these areas it is my belief that this guy probably ran out in front of him….and Stallworth hit him. Unfortunately for Stallworth, he had been drinking. I could be wrong, but pedestrians in Miami dont care if cars are coming or not it seems… my two cents.
right
if drinking had no part in this case…the punishment fits the crime. BUt…..
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
drinking + driving
while being over the legal limit..then yes..
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
But if the drinking and driving wasn’t the cause of the death, then shouldn’t we be looking at it separately from the death?
who says it iwasnt?
cause he was able to flash his lights?? Hell that could mean he flashed his light by mistake cause he was really reaching to turn the radio station…
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
Neither of us know that if it was or wasn’t, which is my point. You’re talking out of school because you’re angry about DUIs.
so you're saying...
that there is a chance that his inebriation played no part in him hitting this guy? I can’t by that…BUT ill go along with it and say…
it doesn’t matter…he broke the law the very second he stepped into that vehicle..by doing so…he put everyone on that road in danger…
Like i have said…if he had not been drunk…this punishment certainly fits this crime BUT…he was and that my friend is a fact.
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
he broke the law the very second he stepped into that vehicle..by doing so…he put everyone on that road in danger…
He did. And he received a FAR harsher sentence than the average person who gets their first DUI. So if, in fact, his drunkenness had little or nothing to do with the outcome, he actually got screwed.
hmmm
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
Well, the average person's first DUI doesn't usually involve a fatality
So I think that explains the harsher sentence.
by Nick's Hat Band on Jun 17, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I understand why he received a more harsh penalty, but assuming, for the sake of argument, that even the most stone-cold sober driver would have ended up killing Reyes as well, then his punishment was amplified for something beyond his control (Reyes’ death).
I haven't...
…picked a horse in this race, but wasn’t Reyes’ death at least partially under his control since he was speeding? Even if you’re sober, if you see a pedestrian, flash your lights at him, and don’t slow down to at least the speed limit, don’t you bear some responsibility for his death? If I drive 40 in a school zone, and a suicidal teenager jumps in front of my car, aren’t I still partially liable since I made it harder to avoid him and harder for him to survive the impact?
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Following that logic to its natural conclusion, why stop at the speed limit? If you’re traveling at a speed — even a legal one — at which a pedestrian wouldn’t survive an impact, aren’t you at least partially to blame for a suicidal person diving in front of your car?
by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions
You didn't...
…follow that logic to its natural conclusion. You followed something else to a different conclusion…natural or not.
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 18, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
The speed limit isn’t a magic number. If you hit a pedestrian going 40, you’re less likely to kill him than if you’re going 50. If you hit him going 30, you’re even LESS likely, so if you’re going to creating culpability for people because they couldn’t stop when a suicidal idiot jumped out in front of them, there’s no obvious reason to stop at the speed limit.
Exactly!
The speed limit isn’t a magic number, Pete. It’s specifically assigned to keep the potentially dangerous act of driving safer than it would be without the limit. The obvious reason to stop at the speed limit is because it is the legal limit and the only one you can practically use because any other number would be a magic number.
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 18, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
aren’t I still partially liable since I made it harder to avoid him and harder for him to survive the impact?
The obvious reason to stop at the speed limit is because it is the legal limit
The first argument doesn’t suddenly stop being true at the speed limit. In the first case you’re talking about culpability because you could have been driving in a way less likely to cause death — in the second you’re talking about culpability because you were doing something against the law at the time.
These are two vastly different arguments, and they both have gaping holes when they’re applied as rules. For the first, instead of considering a school zone, consider an interstate — the difference between 80 and 70 and 60 when it comes to hitting a pedestrian is damn near negligible.
For the second, consider driving with an expired license plate when you hit the suicidal teen. You were doing something against the law when it happened, so you’re to blame, right? After all, if you HADN’T driven, there’s no way you’d have killed that kid.
Fact is, neither of these are terribly useful when considered against a range of scenarios, and both ignore the most obvious cause: a kid jumping out in front of a car.
It’s a much different argument if you take that out of the equation, but ignoring that little detail is a little disingenuous.
Put another way: I fail to see what duty of care you owe someone who jumps out in front of your car.
If you...
…had simply started with this:
I fail to see what duty of care you owe someone who jumps out in front of your car.
You could have saved yourself some time.
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 19, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions
but this was fun!
i am goin back to school in a few weeks and i’m eagerly awaiting the time when i get to take a fun class like “Intro to Logic”.
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jun 19, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Bammer
this sentence isn’t out of scope. I personally know a young man who was convicted of roughly this exact same crime. He was driving home late from a bar and hit a woman and killed her. He had been drinking and didn’t see her, so it was unintentional. His sentence was 2 years in prison BUT it was a special program where he worked during the day, and spent his nights in jail. Sounds odd but its a new thing in Alabama. What made his sentence MUCH worse was the fact that he fled the scene after he hit the woman.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
right and
im sure the fact that he stayed after, called 911 and took a sobriety test played a part in the sentence. But drunk driving + someone dying = 24 days in jail, some probation and community service….screams preferential treatment to me…
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
But he killed somebody!
That’s a terrible crime. He shouldn’t have been drinking anyway, so it is definitely his reponsibility, and he deserves a much tougher sentence. Thats just MHO.
36-0
I understand your point about the justice system,
although I do think you need all the facts before jumping to a conclusion. And if you don’t have all the facts, you should at least have a “Jump to Conclusions” mat.
But I was actually more curious as to how this makes you hate the NFL?
by Nick's Hat Band on Jun 17, 2009 4:14 PM CDT reply actions
oh
well that me might just get suspended for a few games and that he’ll probably be able to continue his career. SOmething thing that others who did less or worse won’t be able to do.
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
He'll need a ride to practice, though.
I can’t decide if I’d rather spend a little time in jail or lose my license forever.
that would suck
but im sure with the 35 mill contract he just signed that he’ll be able to find adequate transportation..unlike the guy he hit…
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
OK, but doesn't that go back to the justice system?
Unless his boss felt really strongly about DUIs, I would think he would be allowed to come back to pretty much any job, at least any job that didn’t require him to drive. And that’s a separate issue of potential liability as opposed to what’s just or not. There are plenty of guys out there working in all sorts of fields who have multiple DUIs.
Also, remember that Pacman Jones was suspended for a year and he’s never been convicted of anything. I’m not even defending the NFL. I just don’t see how you can blame the industry for what Donta Stallworth did.
by Nick's Hat Band on Jun 17, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Indeed
For that matter, I have a few law school classmates who had no problem being admitted to the bar with multiple DUIs.
GOd we are bored...
100+ comments on the NFL…i really didn’t see that coming…
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
If this was just about the NFL in general
I doubt it would have anywhere near this amount of posts.
100+ comments...
…and few are on the NFL.
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Thinking is not a bad thing.
So far, the discourse has been civil…Take THAT Cass Sunstein!
I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 18, 2009 5:33 AM CDT up reply actions
that should be your
sig..
‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban
and, disclosure...
I have nothing but respect and admiration for future-Justice Sunstein.
I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff
by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 18, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
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