This is why I hate the NFL...and our justice system..

$$$ talks in the justice system

if he was joe sixpack, he’d do years behind bars. His money bought him better lawyers and therefore an easier sentence. The way the world works, I’m afraid. If I could think of a better plan, I would, but everything I think of limits freedom rather than promotes it. In other words, I can’t think of anything which will allow the poor criminal to serve less time, just ways to not allow the rich one from hiring the best lawyers, which I can’t see as a good thing……

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant

by NJBammer on Jun 17, 2009 8:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The difference in quality between an expensive defense attorney and a public defender isn’t nearly as great as you seem to assume it is. The reason we hear about rich people getting off easy is because they’re the ones that get reported on. When Joe Sixpack gets arrested for vehicular manslaughter and walks away with the same punishment, he doesn’t make the news.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

im sure you are correct

but that doesn’t make either situation right…If you drink and drive and while doing so kill a person. Your freedom should be taken away. No amount of money should keep you out of jail.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why do you assume money kept him out of jail?

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i said no amount..sorry if that wasn't clear.

that goes both ways. I don’t believe that either poor or the rich should get away with it.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But if it wasn’t money that kept him out of jail, then isn’t this particular case irrelevant to your main argument?

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Im not saying it either way

I am saying that i have a brain…eyes and a conscious…they might be fooling me but its not a stretch to say that he got off cause he’s a somewhat high profile NFL player.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But you’re saying it with no evidence other than his plea and his status, so all you’re really doing is looking to confirm a belief you already hold, not actually find out what the situation is or square your belief with reality in any way. That’s pretty weak.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

but you're acting like

money had nothing to do with it ! at all! Its as if you think his punishment was just.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t believe that money had anything to do with it and I’ve seen no evidence to the contrary.

Whether or not his punishment was just is a different question entirely. It also depends on whether we’re talking about legal justice or moral justice. Frankly, nobody in this thread has sufficient knowledge of the case to really argue either of them.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok pete you're right we

have no direct evidence but we have a right to our opinion. Many of the opinions we all make throughout the day are made from past experience or what information we have in front of us.

In this case, we see a NFL athlete, who makes millions, basically walk away after killing someone with his car while driving drunk. I don’t care about the “evidence” and i don’t need it to be able to my opinion that his celebrity status played some role in this. (call it money or just his name)

You might have first hand knowledge of our justice system treating joe blow in the same way but we also have personal experiences….of seeing our friends get much worse punishment for far less of a crime…we have also watched HUNDREDS of celebs get away with everything and that now includes murder.

I understand what you are saying and i totally respect the fact that you know a lot about law but our justice system is a joke…and im sorry if you don’t agree.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh no you didn't...

"Jay Jacobs can't go to the bathroom without Bobby Lowder's permission" - Paul Finebaum

by GumptownTiger on Jun 17, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You certainly are entitled to your opinion

…however poorly-informed and logically void it is.

I don’t care about the "evidence"

You don’t say?

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

dude what is your prob

with putting people down…

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s not an insult, it’s just a fact. You admitted as much. You don’t want to hear the evidence or the facts, you don’t care about the reality of the situation, you’re not interested in anything but pumping a “ZOMG, OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM SUX” agenda.

Your opinion is intentionally (and militantly) ill-informed, and what evidence you do have is used in a logically flawed way . . . calling it like I see it, here.

I’m sure you’re a fine person, and there are lots of legitimate criticisms of our justice system, but you have yet to raise one that has any basis in fact.

You might as well be saying that our justice system sucks because we have never convicted a single martian.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

im saying

that i don’t need facts to determine if this so called punishments is justice…I don’t care how he acted…he was driving over the legal limit and while doing so kllled a man…

Im not sure why you dont think that getting 24 days in jail for this isn’t extreme…BS…

I am saying that a justice system that allows this…is a joke..sorry. Unless facts come out later that states he was in fact NOT intoxicated or that the guy intentionally jumped in front of his car, then the only opinion I can make is that he drove drunk and killed someone…

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i don’t need facts to determine if this so called punishments is justice

I’m not going to lie — I’m surprised you can actually write this with a straight face. Facts are the ONLY thing you need.

The bottom line is that the guy COULD have jumped in front of his car (or the equivalent of it). We don’t know. There’s nothing inherently evil about drinking.

Driving is risky, no matter how carefully you do it. Everything you do that is NOT driving (changing the radio station, eating, thinking about work, etc) increases the risk that you’ll be in an accident.

In any traffic accident there are tons of variables. Would Stallworth have killed the guy if he had been doing the speed limit instead of 10 over? Would the guy have died if he had crossed at a cross-walk, with the light? What about if Stallworth had blown .075?

Life is full of facts, to think that you don’t need them to form an opinion… just wow.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pete,

…I completely agree with your assessment…but I think Barbara Billingsley would think you are being a little hard on the Beaver here. This is just a blog, there are no debating awards here. :) It’s all good. Roll Tide!

by akbrown15 on Jun 17, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is just a blog, there are no debating awards here

What!? I have been lied to.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well im no beaver

but i have been called a bear.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

cause you seem to

be walking on a mighty high horse…you certainly in this situation have formed an opinion and so have I…how is your informed and built on logic and mine not? Cause by what i have read from you, you also have no facts about this case…so who’s to say im wrong and you’re right?

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You’re wrong because you’re making determinations in absence of fact. I simply pointing out that it’s difficult to really know what’s going on and I’m refraining from judgment.

I’m not “right”, because I haven’t taken any sort of stand except to say that we should know things before we jump to conclusions.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so you make

NO opinions without having facts in front of you…

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not if I can help it, and I certainly don’t brag about how few facts I need, or how many I don’t want to hear about.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

then your not getting my

point….and this is all pointless….im saying in THIS case…i love facts and i really like evidence but in THIS case why are they needed for me to form an opinion? He got in his car…drove while drinking…and hit a man and killed him….what other facts do i need to determine whether or not this PUNISHMENT was just??

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You need to know whether or not the drinking had any impact on the end result.

What if we find out in a week that the guy wrote a suicide note, saying he was going to jump out in front of a car on the highway? Still think Stallworth should get the chair?

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

hmm good point

i just don’t see how you can separate the two. If he was drunk, then his judgment was impaired..it might be just a HUGE coincidence but i find that highly unlikely..

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been crossing a busy, multi-lane road and I’ve started across it before all of the cars had passed where I was basically “timing” my walk so that I would cross a lane just after the last car had cleared me…

…if Reyes was doing that, and Stallworth flashed his lights to say “Hey, watch it, buddy” but Reyes interpreted it as “I’m going to stop and let you cross”, well . . . splat. Not because Stallworth was drunk, but because of a miscommunication between a car going 50mph and a jay-walker.

Is that what happened? I don’t know, but bizarre things happen all the time, and it’s important to remember that there’s a human-being on BOTH sides of the case — just as Reyes deserves justice if Stallworth was at fault, Stallworth deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Sometimes accidents just happen and there’s little that can be done to stop them. I don’t know if this was one of them, but I have a hard time believing that the prosecutor would want to give a high-profile case undeservedly preferential treatment.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought...

…that if you get into a car and drive drunk you’re kind of forfeiting the “benefit of the doubt”, similar to an open container law. Even though it may be the passengers open container, the driver is responsible for it. Just a ?

by akbrown15 on Jun 17, 2009 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He pleaded guilty. He doesn’t get that benefit of the doubt, but when considering the sentence for a plea agreement the prosecutor has a duty to try to enforce a fair punishment for the crime. There’s no reason to believe that this is not the case.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

thanks for the insight pete

i will say however, and admit i dont have all the facts either. but this reeks of a double standard in my opinion. a guy i knew in high school, and who was a friend of my wife is currently serving 10 years for vehicular manslaughter. he was drunk, crashed on the freeway and killed his passenger. they were both drunk and it was actually the passengers car. the drivers story was that they were both drunk, but the passenger was more drunk and asked him to drive so he did. toxicology reports backed that up, the dead passenger had a higher BAC than the surviving driver. but he’s serving 85% of a 10 year sentence thanks to Az’s “truth in sentencing” laws. he killed one of his best friends and get 10 years. Stallworth admits seeing the guy in the road well enough to flash his lights at him, but not well enough to make a decision to avoid hitting him? sounds like he was drunk and could have done more to prevent the accident, and you Pete, are just flat out lying if you cant admit that money buys a better legal defense. if not, then i suggest you to talk to the folks at the Southern Poverty Law Center.

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jun 17, 2009 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Different states have different laws. Comparing DUI sentences between two different states. It’s not a “double standard”, it’s two different states with different sets of laws.

Stallworth admits seeing the guy in the road well enough to flash his lights at him, but not well enough to make a decision to avoid hitting him? sounds like he was drunk and could have done more to prevent the accident

I’m not going to fight this fight again. Read the rest of the thread. There are plenty of situations in which your supposition is false.

As for the SPLC, I respect their work, but you’ll be hard-pressed to find them saying that public defenders are inferior to private defense attorneys. They work to cure injustice where it exists.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where...

…doesn’t it exist?

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

word.

those are all really good points, except that i’m pretty sure the SPLC will point to a correlation between being poor/having a PD/getting a tougher sentence vs. being rich or famous/ having a high priced powerful attorney/ and getting off scott free.

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jun 18, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They will? When? Do you have a cite for that?

Also: http://xkcd.com/552/

by PeteHoliday on Jun 18, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

a quick google of "class disparity in criminal justice system"

returns a multitude of results. “racial disparity in sentencing” also returns a bunch of good stuff from folks like the ACLU and SPLC… and you’re right correlation does not equal causation. however you can clearly tell that i didn’t say that it did. I pointed to the correlation of being poor and not getting light sentences. aside from the myriad of reports published by legal organizations and essays from legal students on this subject, i would think simply being a politically aware person would grant you additional anecdotal evidence to conclude for yourself that there is something to this unexplained trend. simply put, the darker your skin and the smaller your bank account, the greater your preponderance of receiving a more severe sentence than if you were rich and white.

just curious Pete, are you a trial attorney? for some reason thats the impression i have, not sure if thats grounded in reality though… (i’m thinking that if you are a trial lawyer, then perhaps you’re just being contrarian for the fun of it and to help keep our rhetorical skills sharp. but if you are a trial lawyer and sincerely think that a persons racial and economic background doesn’t impact their quality of defense as well as the level of sentence they’ll receive; well then, you must be a really poor attorney.)

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jun 19, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i just implied correlation equaled causation there didn’t i? i should have said “isn’t more likely to impact” than “doesn’t”

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jun 19, 2009 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I

have a few attorneys in my family, my aunt is a public defender by choice. She is extremely smart and capable. Her husband (my uncle) is a doctor so she doesn’t really need to earn a large income. She likes being a public defender because she has a lot of freedom in picking her cases. Usually she’ll only take the ones that interest her. Trust me, if I got into trouble I’d hire her in a second.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jun 17, 2009 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let me get this straight.

If OJ had a public defender, he would have still gotten off for murder? If OJ was not OJ, he would be in jail for life for murder. If not for his money and fame, then tell me why he got off. Race had something to do with it, but those lawyers that he could afford also played a huge role.

by danbama on Jun 17, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If OJ had a public defender he very well could have gotten off. There was also no guarantee that Cochran was going to get a not guilty. My point is not that there aren’t very good private defense attorneys, my point is that hourly rate and quality are not as strongly correlated as most people believe.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

OJ = don't frame a guilty a man.

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I

think OJ got off because the jury were morons. Anybody who’s seen interviews with any of them know what I’m talking about.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jun 17, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

dude it was the glove man..

if the glove don’t fit…acquit….

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That

jury did not want to convict OJ, had nothing to do with his money or lawyers but his fame. Just my uninformed take.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jun 17, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually....

It was the Chewbacca defense.

If Chewbacca, a 7 foot wookie, lives on Endor with all dem little 3 foot Ewoks, then it doesn’t make sense! Therefore, you must acquit.

by Bama philosophe on Jun 18, 2009 12:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you've obviously never

had a public defender represent you in a legal matter have you?

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jun 17, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m a law school graduate. I’ve worked with them, worked opposite them, and have a number of friends on both sides of that divide.

Public defenders get an undeserved bad rap because criminal defense attorneys, in general, have the difficult job of telling people things they don’t want to hear. Couple that with a preconceived notion that the PD is bad to start with and the fact that so many people think they know how the law is supposed to work from reading the news and watching TV shows, and you end up with a whole lot of unfounded reinforcement of a bad stereotype.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I proudly...

defended Native Americans in all three tiers (fed/tribe/state), and I can tell you one thing…the workload is ridiculous, but a “professional criminal defense” attorney differs from a PD in very few respects, and none of them have fuck all to do with intellect: Funding, their clientele, and the ability to reject/cherry pick clients are the big ones.

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You also just described...

…the major respects in which public and private schools differ.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

based on personal experience. I friend of mine got a DUI and asked her PD if there was anything she could do to not lose her license. He said that if the police followed proper procedure, then no, there was nothing she could do.

Of course, a month later a rich celeb got pulled over far more over the limit and got off with a minimal amount of community service and no loss of license. Why? As far as I can tell, better lawyers.

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant

by NJBammer on Jun 17, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your disagreement isn’t based on personal experience, it’s based on second hand information of one case and virtually no information about another.

You have no idea if the police followed proper procedure for the celeb. You have no idea what the specifics of your friend’s case were that she didn’t share with you.

You’re also cherry-picking one PD, who might actually suck completely independent of the fact that he/she is a public defender.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If the PD did suck...

then my friend had no recourse. QED.

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant

by NJBammer on Jun 17, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

She could’ve requested a different PD. And even if she didn’t have any recourse that doesn’t mean that all PDs suck, or that having money would’ve made her life any easier.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Esquire...

you make good points, but I don’t think this is a hill you want to die on. I know that I don’t.

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant

by NJBammer on Jun 17, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s not even really a debate.

1. Your friend could have just been screwed.
2. Even if this was a failing of the PD, one bad PD doesn’t imply that all PDs are bad.
3. Even if this was a failing of the PD, one bad PD doesn’t imply that all private attorneys are better.
4. You’re making a comparison to a case we know next-to-nothing about.

Public Defenders are attorneys. Like all sub-sets of attorneys, some of them are good, some of them are bad. They all have different amounts of experience and in different fields. If your friend believes she was horribly wronged, she can file an appeal on the basis of ineffective assistance of counsel.

Thing is, you’re not entitled to the BEST defense, you’re entitled to a GOOD defense.

The system is imperfect. Trying the same case with the same facts and same attorneys in front of two different juries can produce two opposite results. That’s life.

That results for cases that APPEAR to be similar aren’t always the same is a function of many factors, not the least of which is the fact that cases that appear to be similar often times are very, very different.

There are rich people who have “gotten off easy”… but that’s largely because our system lets LOTS of people off “easy”. I don’t like it, but I typically find the complaints of pampered stars to be an old wive’s tale: widely and firmly believed, but lacking in evidentiary support.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also...

It’s my personal belief that someone else getting off easier for the same crime is a bit of a red herring. You either deserved or did not deserve the punishment you received, regardless of what someone else got for the “same” thing.

I feel exactly the opposite about NCAA sanctions, but that’s because we’re all competing, so “fairness” is a different animal in that case.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And, ummm, the law is like every other profession.

Normative. Really great on one tail, really terrible on the other, and the middling 67% are perfectly competent and solid. Apocrypha doesn’t sell.

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The term...

…“justice system” just cracks me up.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think this is what Pete Holiday is saying, and I am 100% in agreement with him. . .

. . . .this country is not built on a system of justice, this country is built on a system of laws.

Comer4tide to Nico2.0: "How come I've never heard of any of your random songs?"
Todd to Comer: "Because if you had, he wouldn't listen to it. BOOM. Roasted."
Nico to Todd: "Shouldn't you be off voguing somewhere?"

by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 17, 2009 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That, and...

…that we don’t even know if this was a moral injustice because we have no idea if Stallworth could’ve avoided the accident even if he had been sober.

This might just be an example of Darwin Award nominee.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

:- )

Hearin’ ya buddy! (Darwin Award nominee! and WINNER !!!!)

Comer4tide to Nico2.0: "How come I've never heard of any of your random songs?"
Todd to Comer: "Because if you had, he wouldn't listen to it. BOOM. Roasted."
Nico to Todd: "Shouldn't you be off voguing somewhere?"

by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 17, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not...

…weighing in on the Stallworth case, ‘cause I don’t know or care much about it. I’m just saying that calling our legal ‘system’ a ‘justice system’ is funny.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I

think in general, the term “system” is way over used.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jun 17, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree, also. . . .

. . .“at the end of the day. . .” and my all-time major pet-peeve for the redundance of " . . irregardless",

Comer4tide to Nico2.0: "How come I've never heard of any of your random songs?"
Todd to Comer: "Because if you had, he wouldn't listen to it. BOOM. Roasted."
Nico to Todd: "Shouldn't you be off voguing somewhere?"

by BixBeiderbecke on Jun 17, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

“irregardless” being in the dictionary irritates me far more than it should.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

."at the end of the day. . ." is the mother of all cliches.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jun 17, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hate cliches... I avoid them like the plague.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not about "justice"...ever.

no institution of higher legal learning is called a School of Justice…it’s a school of law, and the discipline and the system is a legal one. Sometimes justice prevails, sometimes not. But remember this: Who ultimately promulgates these laws? ~~Lobbyists~~ Lawyers. Fair shakes are not made and brokered in the civil or criminal code; they are made and brokered by the millions of grunts (paralegals, support staff, attorneys, judges, appellate courts, civic demand) who make the system (or attempt to do so) a fair one.

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've never...

…heard anyone refer to judges as grunts before.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ever worked for one?

Ridiculous caseloads…
The law = you’re not doing it right if you don’t work 7 days and/or 70+ a week :)

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 18, 2009 5:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He has also reached a finacial settlement with the family of the victim.

Maybe the family decided that this was a good way to cash in and convinced the judge to lessen the sentence so they can get a larger settlement, considering that he will still be making (big) money. Too me, this makes absolutely no sense, but it is the only way I can wrap my head around this guy getting a slap on the wrist for what he did.

I am in 100% agreement with you on this bammer. If Stallworth had been just some average guy, he most likely gets the maximum sentence.

by Jumpn_JackFlash on Jun 17, 2009 9:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I've driven...

…in Miami a few times…and I must say…it’s crazy. There are people darting from every direction into the street on bikes, walking, pushing carts, with no regard to red lights or traffic flow. You have to be on your toes. (It’s like playing frogger in reverse) It was dumb of Stallworth to drink and drive…..and even more idiotic to drink and drive on a street with heavy pedestrian traffic.

by akbrown15 on Jun 17, 2009 9:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Leonard Little killed a lady

and I don’t think served any jail time.

Vick gets 2 years for dog fighting (which is bad, don’t get me wrong), and this guy kills a person and gets a month

If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.

by btcoop71 on Jun 17, 2009 9:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

My point exactly

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah

but you’re dealing with feds in the case of Vick. No parole; and, unless you’ve got something to really offer them, they’re not playing ball with you.

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok

good point but its still messed up.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very good point.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So are we saying

that if DUI offenders who kill people with cars were prosecuted by the feds they’d get a just punishment more often than they currently do? (For the record, I’m not saying they don’t currently get a just punishment, necessarily; it just seems that this is the point you’re making) If so, let’s make it a federal crime!

I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR

by SugarBowl93 on Jun 17, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Feds don’t generally deal with small-potatoes crimes like DUIs. A federal prosecution is a ridiculously expensive thing and the states don’t really need the US Attorney’s help prosecuting crimes like DUIs.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I understand all that

my point was that it seemed you were saying that punishments are more or less just depending on whether or not they’re tried in local court or federal court. If that’s the case, I want the justice.

And, for what it’s worth, there might be a few dead people who would object to DUIs being “small-potatoes crime.”

I bleed crimson and white...I puke Vol puke orange. RTR

by SugarBowl93 on Jun 17, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Punishments depend on a huge number of factors. Punishments aren’t more harsh from the Feds because the they’re tougher on crime, they’re more harsh because they deal with more serious crimes.

When you compare a run-of-the-mill DUI to the kinds of cases the US Attorney normally handles, there’s no other way to describe it.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

DUI...

…in and of itself is a small-potatoes crime. Injuring someone while DUI is different.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not really.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Which part?

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 18, 2009 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No part of a DUI, injury or no, is as serious as the crimes that the US Attorneys see day in and day out.

That’s not saying that DUI isn’t a problem, or that as a whole DUIs are no big deal… but when we’re talking about some guy driving around drunk versus child predators and serial killers?

Yeah, Bubba’s DUI — even if he hurt or killed someone during it — is small potatoes.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 18, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

DUI a big deal

I’ve had two family members killed by drunk drivers. I for one feel that DUI should be treated much more strongly than they are now.

If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.

by btcoop71 on Jun 18, 2009 7:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've always felt

People that can’t sit their rear at home and get sloppy, should get stiffer penalties.

by 2KTrans Am on Jun 20, 2009 2:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The

Feds have to have jurisdiction I’m sure. They can’t just go in and prosecute any case in any state they want to (and wouldn’t want them to have that power). Something has to trigger the authority of the Feds such as someone committing a crime and fleeing accross state lines. That is unless TV and movies has lied to me.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jun 17, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

More or less, yeah. Federal criminal law the the FBI/US Attorney’s jurisdiction is an interesting thing that I don’t fully comprehend and which is far beyond the scope of a comment here.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Blach...Commerce Clause was NEVER meant to go that far...EVAH. OMGZ!111

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 17, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Commerce Clause has been trumped up and abused

at least since the Great Depression…

Government: We don’t care if that extra acreage of wheat is for personal use, we have set a limit to how much wheat each farmer can grow so tough sh!… If you don’t like it sue us, oh wait that’s already happened.

by 2KTrans Am on Jun 17, 2009 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Damn Straight!

Fuck that wack-ass Wickard v. Filburn shit!

by Bama philosophe on Jun 18, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

a moment of silence for Lopez, please

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 18, 2009 5:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I suspect that the commentariat on this tread doesn’t know anything about the case beyond what was reported in the news. Jumping to conclusions based on news reports of legal cases is an exceedingly bad idea because it is literally impossible for a news reporter to both a) comprehend the legal issues of the case and b) work all of the relevant facts into an article.

To cherry-pick one example, we have no idea whether or not the BAC evidence was actually admissible. DUI law is complicated. If there was some problem with its collection that made its admissibility questionable, the prosecutor could’ve been staring down the barrel of a Not Guilty verdict and chose, instead, to get SOMETHING out of the case.

A lifetime driver’s license suspension is not a trivial matter, either, folks.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 9:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you Pete, we don’t know all the facts in the case. But we all know that a man is dead because he was hit by a drunk driver. And a case as highly publicized as this sends a message that the life of the dogs that Vick killed are worth more than the life of that man.

by Jumpn_JackFlash on Jun 17, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

exactly..

im sure Joe Blow’s get away with stuff everyday but there is enough cases out there that shows preferential treatment to celebrities. Its much worse in hollywood but if Vick gets a year for killing dogs…this guys should 5 times that much for killing a person while drunk..

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point is that you have yet to provide once piece of credible evidence to suggest that this was preferential treatment for a celebrity as opposed to a move made out of legal necessity.

In fact, in my experience, prosecutors are loathe to give breaks to people they know are being tracked by the media for the very reason you suggest.

You’re getting all worked up over a perceived injustice and then trying to extrapolate that to the justice system as a whole when it’s likely that the original “injustice” doesn’t exist.

The Wikipedia page on Confirmation Bias is useful here, as well.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stallworth also reached a confidential financial settlement to avoid a potential lawsuit from the family of 59-year-old Mario Reyes, according to Stallworth’s attorney, Christopher Lyons. Reyes was struck and killed March 14 by Stallworth, who was driving his black 2005 Bentley after a night drinking at a swanky hotel bar.

A source told ESPN’s Kelly Naqi that while the financial terms of the settlement with the family have not been disclosed, Stallworth was covered by two insurance policies: a car insurance policy and a $5 million umbrella policy.

Knowing insurance the way i do..im sure this family was going to go after him hard..im sure this “undisclosed settlement” isnt a mere couple grand. He probably gave them money in return for them not pushing for major jail time. Now im not a lawyer and i could be wrong but that sounds like preferential treatment to me…that is if its true.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apples and Oranges

You’re conflating the civil and criminal penalties/cases. The family can talk to the prosecutor, but they don’t have any say in his prosecution of felonies.

Stallworth was going to get sued regardless of the outcome of his criminal case and it is tremendously unlikely that this settlement had any effect on the prosecutor’s decision.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again im no lawyer

but what all these cases that get settled out of court for large amounts of money? Are those not criminal? Just wondering.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No. Criminal cases do not get “settled”. That is a term used only for civil matters.

In a criminal case you have a plea agreement.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

“Miami-Dade State Attorney Katherine Fernandez Rundle cited Stallworth’s lack of previous criminal record, cooperation with police and willingness to accept responsibility as factors in the plea deal. Rundle also said the Reyes family — particularly the victim’s 15-year-old daughter — wanted the case resolved to avoid any more pain.”-AP

"Jay Jacobs can't go to the bathroom without Bobby Lowder's permission" - Paul Finebaum

by GumptownTiger on Jun 17, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You’re not trying to suggest that the prosecutor would’ve come out and said “Officer Smith screwed up Stallworth’s breathalizer”, are you? You’re looking at “coach speak”.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not tying to suggest anything

it is a quote from the AP it says only what it says. It references the families desire to have the case resolved to avoid any more pain. You infer what you want to from it. I’m unfamiliar with the term “coach speak”.

"Jay Jacobs can't go to the bathroom without Bobby Lowder's permission" - Paul Finebaum

by GumptownTiger on Jun 17, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Basically my point is that the prosecutor is doing PR for the plea bargain, not spilling the beans about the case. You can bet that everything she says is true, but I doubt you’re getting the whole truth there.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm surprised no one here has used riots

as a possible reason OJ got a break. There had already been massive riots from a police brutality arrest. It is not beyond reason to assume that preventing rioting had something to due with the “punishment” OJ received. IF that is what happened then you can attribute his fame/race into him getting a slap on the wrist. I am not saying this is what happened, only that it is a possibility.

by 2KTrans Am on Jun 17, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The glove...

…did fit, by the way. It was just hard to put on since it had been left out in the elements.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and he stopped

taking the medication he took for arthritis and his hands swelled

"Jay Jacobs can't go to the bathroom without Bobby Lowder's permission" - Paul Finebaum

by GumptownTiger on Jun 18, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

na dude...

he had just tried the new Lays Potato chips and since he couldn’t eat just one…all the salt made him retain water…hence the hands swelling…

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 18, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stupidest

decision Marsha Clark made in that trial. They already had matching bloody footprints, even matching the type of shoe’s OJ owned (some kind of rare expensive kind). What the hell difference is the glove going to make at that point?

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jun 18, 2009 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe he shoulda

tapped his brakes as opposed to flashing his lights.

"Jay Jacobs can't go to the bathroom without Bobby Lowder's permission" - Paul Finebaum

by GumptownTiger on Jun 17, 2009 10:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Exactly.

If he was far enough away that he saw him about to run out in the street and then had enough time to flash his lights to warn him (which I don’t believe he did) then he had more than enough time to put on the breaks.

by Jumpn_JackFlash on Jun 17, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

See, but now you’re just adding facts that suit your reading of the case. For starters, most folks are perfectly capable of operating their lights and their brakes at the same time. Just flashing his lights doesn’t mean he didn’t also use his brakes.

Consider this hypothetical chain of events:

Stallworth is driving in the middle of a multi-lane road when, some distance ahead, he sees Reyes begin to cross in front of him. He flashes his lights with the intention of getting Reyes to stop to allow him to drive through but instead, just as Stallworth approaches, Reyes continues out into his lane.

Now, you’re thinking “He shoulda just stopped!” But take a moment and think about how many times you’ve seen someone start crossing a road and pause just at the edge of a lane to wait for a car to pass before continuing across the road. If Stallworth assumed that’s what was going on (and what reason would he have to think otherwise?) you can hardly put the full brunt of this on his shoulders, drunk or not.

If traffic stopped every time some idiot put a pinky toe on the road, we’d never get anywhere.

I’m not saying this is what actually happened, but there are a lot of different ways this could’ve played out, and a huge number of them are not nearly as damning as some folks would like it to seem.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pete, I am not trying to add facts and make a worse case against him and if I did I appologize for letting my emotions on this get the best of me. I know I do not know exactly what happened and I agree that there are a lot of different ways it could have happened. But I also know that Stallworth has plead guilty to vehicular MANSLAUGHTER. I am no attorney, but for manslaughter, it really sounds like the guy got off easy.

You are right on about all the different legal ramifications of this case. But as a doctor that has seen first hand the effects that a drunk driver can have on peoples lives, this case really bothers me.

by Jumpn_JackFlash on Jun 17, 2009 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point is simply that based on how little we know, it’s entirely possible that the result of this could have been exactly identical even if Stallworth had never had a drink in his life. There are folks running around in this thread calling for major jail time because of an emotional reaction to drunk driving rather than the actual facts of the case.

The bottom line is that for all we know, Mr. Reyes lost his life because he mis-judged the distance and speed of a car at night after working the third shift and in a rush to get home. We don’t know that a “sober” person would have been able to avoid him.

Drinking and driving is bad, sure, but whether it’s to blame for Mr. Reyes death we really don’t know.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

this happened in the a.m.

by akbrown15 on Jun 17, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Drive slow, homie...

You need to pump your brakes and drive slow, homie.

by Bama philosophe on Jun 17, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My assumption...

….this only my assumption…so take it for what its worth. Having driven in these areas it is my belief that this guy probably ran out in front of him….and Stallworth hit him. Unfortunately for Stallworth, he had been drinking. I could be wrong, but pedestrians in Miami dont care if cars are coming or not it seems… my two cents.

by akbrown15 on Jun 17, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

right

if drinking had no part in this case…the punishment fits the crime. BUt…..

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because drinking is evil, right?

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

drinking + driving

while being over the legal limit..then yes..

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But if the drinking and driving wasn’t the cause of the death, then shouldn’t we be looking at it separately from the death?

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

who says it iwasnt?

cause he was able to flash his lights?? Hell that could mean he flashed his light by mistake cause he was really reaching to turn the radio station…

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Neither of us know that if it was or wasn’t, which is my point. You’re talking out of school because you’re angry about DUIs.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so you're saying...

that there is a chance that his inebriation played no part in him hitting this guy? I can’t by that…BUT ill go along with it and say…

it doesn’t matter…he broke the law the very second he stepped into that vehicle..by doing so…he put everyone on that road in danger…

Like i have said…if he had not been drunk…this punishment certainly fits this crime BUT…he was and that my friend is a fact.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he broke the law the very second he stepped into that vehicle..by doing so…he put everyone on that road in danger…

He did. And he received a FAR harsher sentence than the average person who gets their first DUI. So if, in fact, his drunkenness had little or nothing to do with the outcome, he actually got screwed.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

hmmm

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, the average person's first DUI doesn't usually involve a fatality

So I think that explains the harsher sentence.

by Nick's Hat Band on Jun 17, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I understand why he received a more harsh penalty, but assuming, for the sake of argument, that even the most stone-cold sober driver would have ended up killing Reyes as well, then his punishment was amplified for something beyond his control (Reyes’ death).

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I haven't...

…picked a horse in this race, but wasn’t Reyes’ death at least partially under his control since he was speeding? Even if you’re sober, if you see a pedestrian, flash your lights at him, and don’t slow down to at least the speed limit, don’t you bear some responsibility for his death? If I drive 40 in a school zone, and a suicidal teenager jumps in front of my car, aren’t I still partially liable since I made it harder to avoid him and harder for him to survive the impact?

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Following that logic to its natural conclusion, why stop at the speed limit? If you’re traveling at a speed — even a legal one — at which a pedestrian wouldn’t survive an impact, aren’t you at least partially to blame for a suicidal person diving in front of your car?

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You didn't...

…follow that logic to its natural conclusion. You followed something else to a different conclusion…natural or not.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 18, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The speed limit isn’t a magic number. If you hit a pedestrian going 40, you’re less likely to kill him than if you’re going 50. If you hit him going 30, you’re even LESS likely, so if you’re going to creating culpability for people because they couldn’t stop when a suicidal idiot jumped out in front of them, there’s no obvious reason to stop at the speed limit.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 18, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly!

The speed limit isn’t a magic number, Pete. It’s specifically assigned to keep the potentially dangerous act of driving safer than it would be without the limit. The obvious reason to stop at the speed limit is because it is the legal limit and the only one you can practically use because any other number would be a magic number.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 18, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You’re mixing legal causation and moral causation and using whichever one best suits your argument.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 18, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How so?

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 18, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

aren’t I still partially liable since I made it harder to avoid him and harder for him to survive the impact?

The obvious reason to stop at the speed limit is because it is the legal limit

The first argument doesn’t suddenly stop being true at the speed limit. In the first case you’re talking about culpability because you could have been driving in a way less likely to cause death — in the second you’re talking about culpability because you were doing something against the law at the time.

These are two vastly different arguments, and they both have gaping holes when they’re applied as rules. For the first, instead of considering a school zone, consider an interstate — the difference between 80 and 70 and 60 when it comes to hitting a pedestrian is damn near negligible.

For the second, consider driving with an expired license plate when you hit the suicidal teen. You were doing something against the law when it happened, so you’re to blame, right? After all, if you HADN’T driven, there’s no way you’d have killed that kid.

Fact is, neither of these are terribly useful when considered against a range of scenarios, and both ignore the most obvious cause: a kid jumping out in front of a car.

It’s a much different argument if you take that out of the equation, but ignoring that little detail is a little disingenuous.

Put another way: I fail to see what duty of care you owe someone who jumps out in front of your car.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 19, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you...

…had simply started with this:

I fail to see what duty of care you owe someone who jumps out in front of your car.

You could have saved yourself some time.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 19, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

but this was fun!

i am goin back to school in a few weeks and i’m eagerly awaiting the time when i get to take a fun class like “Intro to Logic”.

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jun 19, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bammer

this sentence isn’t out of scope. I personally know a young man who was convicted of roughly this exact same crime. He was driving home late from a bar and hit a woman and killed her. He had been drinking and didn’t see her, so it was unintentional. His sentence was 2 years in prison BUT it was a special program where he worked during the day, and spent his nights in jail. Sounds odd but its a new thing in Alabama. What made his sentence MUCH worse was the fact that he fled the scene after he hit the woman.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jun 17, 2009 11:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

right and

im sure the fact that he stayed after, called 911 and took a sobriety test played a part in the sentence. But drunk driving + someone dying = 24 days in jail, some probation and community service….screams preferential treatment to me…

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But he killed somebody!

That’s a terrible crime. He shouldn’t have been drinking anyway, so it is definitely his reponsibility, and he deserves a much tougher sentence. Thats just MHO.

36-0

by Bamabrave4 on Jun 17, 2009 11:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I understand your point about the justice system,

although I do think you need all the facts before jumping to a conclusion. And if you don’t have all the facts, you should at least have a “Jump to Conclusions” mat.

But I was actually more curious as to how this makes you hate the NFL?

by Nick's Hat Band on Jun 17, 2009 4:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

oh

well that me might just get suspended for a few games and that he’ll probably be able to continue his career. SOmething thing that others who did less or worse won’t be able to do.

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He'll need a ride to practice, though.

I can’t decide if I’d rather spend a little time in jail or lose my license forever.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that would suck

but im sure with the 35 mill contract he just signed that he’ll be able to find adequate transportation..unlike the guy he hit…

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have a feeling he will be suspended for most of if not the entire season because of this.

It also would not surprise me if the Browns voided his contract based on some morals clause.

by Jumpn_JackFlash on Jun 17, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK, but doesn't that go back to the justice system?

Unless his boss felt really strongly about DUIs, I would think he would be allowed to come back to pretty much any job, at least any job that didn’t require him to drive. And that’s a separate issue of potential liability as opposed to what’s just or not. There are plenty of guys out there working in all sorts of fields who have multiple DUIs.

Also, remember that Pacman Jones was suspended for a year and he’s never been convicted of anything. I’m not even defending the NFL. I just don’t see how you can blame the industry for what Donta Stallworth did.

by Nick's Hat Band on Jun 17, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Indeed

For that matter, I have a few law school classmates who had no problem being admitted to the bar with multiple DUIs.

by PeteHoliday on Jun 17, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

GOd we are bored...

100+ comments on the NFL…i really didn’t see that coming…

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 17, 2009 8:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

If this was just about the NFL in general

I doubt it would have anywhere near this amount of posts.

by 2KTrans Am on Jun 17, 2009 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

100+ comments...

…and few are on the NFL.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jun 17, 2009 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thinking is not a bad thing.

So far, the discourse has been civil…Take THAT Cass Sunstein!

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jun 18, 2009 5:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

SCREW YOU!

by PeteHoliday on Jun 18, 2009 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that should be your

sig..

‘When you build a house and you make it hurricane-proof by putting certain kinds of windows in it, and use cement instead of stick construction and all that kind of stuff, you’re getting prepared for what? A hurricane that may or may never every come." ’We’re going to have 12 hurricanes next year, we know they’re coming.’
- Coach Nick Saban

by bammer on Jun 18, 2009 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs