Let's talk numbers...
by outsidethesidelines on Jul 17, 2009 9:00 AM CDT
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PrintAs we all know, Alabama needs attrition in order to make the 2009 signing class fit under the NCAA mandated maximum of 85 players allowed on scholarship. Of course though, precisely how we get to that point remains uncertain, and as of right now all we can do is speculate. With a speculative mindset, let's see if we can get a better picture of where we are and exactly how much further attrition we have left.
To begin our little inquiry, let us begin with the rather obvious assumption that we were at 85 or fewer scholarships last season, and for the sake of speculation, let us just assume that last year we had exactly 85 players on scholarship. So, who has left the program? From the outset, we did have nine seniors graduate from the 2008 team. That puts us with, at most, 76 players on scholarship. Furthermore, two other players declared early for the NFL Draft (Glen Coffee and Andre Smith), so that puts us at 74 players.
Since that point in time, however, seven more players have left the program as well, which puts us with, at most, 67 players on scholarship. Those players include:
- Corey Smith: Transferred to West Virginia
- Prince Hall: Transferred to Central Washington
- Jennings Hester: Medical scholarship with hamstring injuries
- Evan Cardwell: Medical scholarship with a back injury
- Charlie Kirschman: Graduated and gave up football
- Chris Jackson: Transferring due to playing time issues
- Brandon Fanney: Transferring, likely to North Alabama
On the other hand, however, we have also added four players since the end of the 2008 season. Those players include Kerry Murphy, Jermaine Preyear, James Carpenter, and Chance Warmack. Those four additions puts us with, at most, 71 players currently on scholarship. To be sure, we also added Phelon Jones, but despite what his father has said to the media, he is widely expected not to go onto scholarship until 2010, so he does not affect the numbers. Thus, with, at most 71 players currently on scholarship, that leaves the Tide with room to add only 14 players come Fall.
Now, with that said, there are currently 24 players in the 2009 class who hope to enroll. We originally signed 27 players, and since then two have already enrolled (Carpenter and Warmack), and another has signed with a junior college due to academic shortcomings (Quinton Dial). That leaves, again, 24 players still hoping to enroll from the 2009 class, and at the moment we can only say that we definitively have 14 spots available. As a result, on the surface, we need to create room for 10 more players in the coming weeks.
So, we have 24 players out there and only 14 spots currently available... how do we make it work?
To begin with, two of those 24 players are still on the fence academically, and those two are, of course, Eddie Lacy and Darrington Sentimore. In the past I've considered Lacy as unlikely to qualify thanks to Clearinghouse concerns (even if he completes his remaining coursework to satisfaction), and I'm afraid to say the most recent reports on Sentimore have been increasingly bearish. This may not turn out to be the case, and one of these two (or both) may end up and qualify, but I'm afraid to say that the smart money is probably not on it at the moment. So, in other words, those 24 players looking to enroll may in all likelihood be only 22.
And if you trim to 22 players, you can actually still trim further. Even barring unforeseen injury concerns that we are currently unaware of, three potential candidates for a greyshirt are clearly in play, and they are Kellen Williams, Kendall Kelly, and Rod Woodson. Williams tore his ACL playing in a charity basketball game and will not play in 2009 regardless, Kelly had some pretty serious hip surgery and was still on crutches as the summer months approached, and Woodson recently underwent arthroscopic shoulder surgery. Of the three, Woodson seems most unlikely to greyshirt because he should be physically fine by the start of Fall camp and he could make a big contribution on special teams (at least) in 2009, but even so he likely remains in play. Williams does not want to take a greyshirt (who does?) and I imagine Kelly does not either, but again both are in play. All three could feasibly greyshirt, and that could drive the number down as low as 19 players looking to enroll.
Furthermore, on the opposite side of the equation, we can also take two more cuts without necessarily losing anyone. Prior to the 2008 season, Coach Saban found himself with a couple of additional scholarships at his disposal, and awarded them accordingly to kicker Leigh Tiffin and punter P.J. Fitzgerald. However, neither Tiffin or Fitzgerald performed particularly well in 2008, and it is widely expected that both of those players will go off of scholarship for the 2009 season. Those two cuts alone could currently give us 16 spots available.
In other words, while the 24/14 ratio indicates that we may need to trim another 10 players from the current ranks, the real numbers right now may very well be 19/16, and we may need to only clear another three players in order to get in under the 85. Long story short, all of the aforementioned notwithstanding, all of the doom and gloom talk of massive amounts of attrition to come may very well be overblown, and in all actuality we are probably closer to making the 85 than imagined. Now of course all of that isn't necessarily going to happen (I figure, realistically, at most we get two greyshirts), but nevertheless the point remains that we are most likely far closer to getting in under the limit than is currently recognized.
So, with all of that in mind, exactly how do we get there from here? Obviously, we are going to have some more attrition from the current ranks, but frankly I do not think it will be a major issue. Just browsing the official roster at RollTide.com, without explicitly naming names, I can find six players on scholarship who simply do not seem to be legitimate SEC caliber players. And frankly, we have reached a point where, as Chris Jackson showed, we are going to see some kids transfer simply because they cannot get any playing time, and if you look at the current roster from that perspective, things really open up. It's very easy to find kids who, while solid players, do not look to get any meaningful playing time any time soon (if ever), and those kids are obviously going to be potential candidates for attrition as well.
One way or the other, it will work out in the coming weeks. I imagine we'll probably lose another four to six players from the current crop, and that will be that. Some of them will be the so-called scrubs that we all expected from the beginning as potential casualties in the war of attrition, but no one should be surprised if there is a surprise player or two who ends up biting the dust. Nevertheless, despite all of the doom and gloom talk by some, the Tide will get under the 85 once again after a long summer of speculation, and if my guesstimation is correct, the road to getting to where we need to be probably will not have near the number of casualties as many expect.
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I can find six players on scholarship who simply do not seem to be legitimate SEC caliber players
What you mean to say is that you can find six players who you assume are on scholarship, but they might not be, because nobody really has any idea what second, third, fourth, or fifth year players are actually on Scholarship.
ever
the contrarian
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jul 17, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
The reason I take issue is because there is a lot of scrutiny about Alabama’s scholarship numbers, and when Tide fans/bloggers concede this point (that we are actually over the scholarship cap as of right now), it lays the groundwork for a lot of baseless accusations.
The fact of the matter is this: we know of two classes of people who got scholarships last year: the freshman who were promised scholarships, and the three walk-ons who were gifted scholarships at year-end. Everyone else is a question mark.
The assumption being made by everyone is that if a guy had a scholarship last year, he retained it this year. The problem with that assumption is that it was invented out of whole cloth. On the one hand, because Alabama’s football coffers are pretty much constantly filled to the brim, there’s almost no reason NOT to give out 85 scholarships every year. Then again, we’re also not privy to the discussions between the coaches and players, for example:
Saban: We have problems X, Y, and Z with the way you’ve been playing, son, if you don’t fix those things by next year, we’re going to have to give your scholarship to a new guy coming in.
We really have no idea who is or isn’t on scholarship, but the assumption that scholarships, as a rule, persist from one season to the next is one of the big ones anchoring the whole “Saban is playing with fire” argument. If, on the other hand, we assume that the scholarship situation is much more fluid and tied to individual performance and effort — and there’s no reason for it not to be — these problems immediately disappear and there’s nothing for the “concerned” folks like Cook and JCCW to bitch about any more.
by PeteHoliday on Jul 17, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
im
sure that conversation is had at some point with every player….even a guy like Julio. Maybe they aren’t threatened to have their scholly taken away, but every player knows what area’s they need to improve. And if they don’t…then they know what will happen. All we have to do is look at those players who have been in Saban’s “dog house” and we will see how he handles those who don’t “improve”.
when Tide fans/bloggers concede this point (that we are actually over the scholarship cap as of right now), it lays the groundwork for a lot of baseless accusations.
I get what you are saying there…i really do but there is reason to be concerned. We HAVE to be at or under 85 in just a few weeks/months…i don’t think having this conversation is admitting we did anything wrong, but just saying there is work to do….
sure. if you want to.
but i offered it in reference to your comment about the degree of scrutiny this issue receives.
Ahhh.
Yeah. It’s a little silly. JCCW, some Georgia blog, and countless others have whined about this, but I don’t see them counting their own scholarships.
Which is odd because here’s my guess: every school that can AFFORD to give out 85 scholarships, gives out 85 every. single. year. The only reason you wouldn’t is because giving $$ to someone puts them on the NCAA “improper benefits” watchlist forever, but that seems a minor consideration — especially for walk-on type guys who don’t play a lot.
First of all
Thanks OTS for the great write-up. Now to the crybaby of the blog. This information is for fans to discuss. Nick Saban is not the ruler of the universe that cannot and should not be questioned. I believe OTS is giving out facts about where the team is right now based on current information. Yes, I know we cannot know what Saban knows, but we have the right to discuss it.
I don’t care what Brian Cook writes about us. Why do you? They are rightly jealous of what we have got going on in Tuscaloosa. You think they are sure of Rich Rod yet? I know that Saban has our program headed to one of the top five in the country and have last year and his previous coaching stints to back that up. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t have conversation about the scholarship cap. I think a guy who works hard and was recruited to Bama should keep his scholarship. If they have problems like Prince Hall, get rid of him.
Thanks again OTS for the write-up. Keep doing what you do and we’ll keep reading.
first off, ad hominem attacks tend to fall short of the intended targets while undermining the accusations that accomany them. hyperbole only acerbates the situation.
but, more importantly, i don’t see anything in the comments above that insist on the accusations you allege. there are specific misunderstandings about the basic assumptions that must be made in a discussion on this topic. pointing that out isn’t necessarily attacking the entirety of the article nor insisting it is invalid.
Dear Dan,
For whatever it is that I’ve done to get your panties all in a bundle, I do sincerely apologize. While I’m not sure quite what it was, I’m convinced it must be something quite bad as a full 60% of your numerous, thought-provoking contributions to this site have been dedicated to showing me who’s boss.
That said, I think you misunderstand my point. I simply want people to be conscious of what they do and do not know. This might be a foreign concept to you, so let me elaborate:
We all know a finite number of things. Each of us has a set of facts, ideas, and concepts that we do not grasp because we lack either the capacity or the opportunity to learn them. Here’s where it gets tricky: It is my firm belief that we should stick to what we know. We should not claim things to be facts of which we are ignorant. We should make sure we are clear when we’re stating our opinion or guess on a matter.
In the instant case, OTS has painted as fact things that none of us here know to be true. In so doing, he has provided more fuel for the ever-growing scrutiny of Alabama’s scholarship practices. It may seem inconsequential to you, but please try to keep in mind that recruiting is a dirty game, and the more doubt that gets cast on the scholarship situation, the harder it is for us to land quality recruits.
I’m not asking that people stop discussing the topic, only that it be discussed with some degree of honesty and forthrightness as to what we do and do not know to be true.
Finally, as to your ad hominem: if you have a problem with something I’ve done or said, I encourage you to contact me directly (pete.holiday@gmail.com) and we can resolve that issue like adults rather than you continuing embarrassing yourself with hopelessly weak insults.
Sincerely,
The Unofficial RBR Cry Baby
by PeteHoliday on Jul 17, 2009 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I do apologize
I shouldn’t have called you a crybaby. Sorry. I have been a reader of this blog for at least a couple of years now, but haven’t felt the need to contribute until now. You do seem to bring debate to this blog, but more times that not come off as arrogant. If I had left off the crybaby insult, you might have answered a few of my questions.
Do you think Saban should be questioned on anything? Personally, I don’t think OTS was suggesting this at all. You seem to think that bringing the issue up will hurt recruiting, but I don’t agree. Saban will have the plan in place and discussing possibilities will not affect what will happen. This is not the USSR now is it? Not mentioning it on this blog will not keep it a secret. It is OK to discuss, get it?
We definitely disagree on whether a hard working player should or should not keep his scholarship. I am sure that Saban has players in mind that is not following rules, making the grades, or with bad character that brings the team down to put on the road. This is not the NFL and cutting players would be unfair to men that dedicated their heart to this university.
If I post in the future, there will be no insults. I will not try to talk over anyone else and just state my opinion. Pete, with a vote you could be the Official RBR Cry Baby. Go for it!
or the master-debater?
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jul 18, 2009 2:41 AM CDT up reply actions
JK of course pete
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jul 18, 2009 2:42 AM CDT up reply actions
A few points:
1 – I have never said that the issue shouldn’t be discussed, only that we shouldn’t concede points to our rivals that are harmful to our cause and that we do not know to be true.
2 – I have never said that Saban shouldn’t be questioned (although you seem to assume that he “has a plan”, so I’m not sure how to square those two things), but I think it’s worth noting that he has much, much more information about the personnel on the team than we do, so we have to take into account that when we ask the questions, we’re doing so from a position of great relative ignorance.
3 – It’s not an issue of keeping something “secret”. But if the only people talking about this are folks like Brian Cook and Jay Coulter, well, any recruit with an IQ above that of a deflated football is going to be able to see that it’s just partisan mud-slinging. If, on the other hand, even Alabama blogs are wringing their hands about the issue and making the assumption that this is a problem, it is much easier for a neutral observer to conclude that it is really a problem.
(Aside: This is the main reasoning behind “anything you say can be held against you in a court of law.” You have absolutely no reason or incentive to say things that are against your own interest, so when you do say things contrary to your cause, they are given greater weight.)
4 – My only point is two-fold — first, we literally have no idea what the scholarship situation is right now and second, we shouldn’t be making all kinds of assumptions about it (especially ones that are potentially harmful to us). Nobody has disputed either of these points.
Last year, when a hack of a reporter made up numbers out of thin air, assumed they were true, and then wrote a newspaper article about how Alabama was going to have a hard time getting in under the cap, everyone took the numbers as the gospel. That is why it’s an issue that everyone loves to talk bout. If he had been challenged from more fronts to provide a source for his numbers (or at least assert that a source existed), we might have spent last off-season having a serious discussion about the best way to determine, as an outsider, how many scholarships a team has given out. But we didn’t. We spent the whole off-season defending the coach and the team from ridiculous attacks.
I apologize if you think that I’m arrogant, but whether or not that’s true has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I’m right about a particular issue, and it would benefit everyone for you to spend your time proving that I’m wrong rather than proving that I’m a jerk. (The latter is a point that is not under dispute at the present time, so you’d just be wasting your breath anyhow)
+1
"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant
The ability to detach emotion from logical debate is a difficult habit to form.
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 18, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
especially when talking about sports….
"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant
passion and logic are not mutually exclusive...
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 18, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Or
just about anything substantive.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
Great write-up as always...
Pete makes a valid point, as well. I think I had read in a Tidesports article last year that even after awarding Tiffin, Fitzgerald, and Rogers scholarships last year that we were still at least one scholarship under the 85 limit, but I can’t remember who wrote the article or what they were basing their count on (in other words, whether it was officially or unofficially stated by someone in the athletic dept).
People that need to go: Tyrone King, Travis Sikes, Charlie Higgenbothom, Chris Rogers, Baron Huber, Marquis Johnson. Not trying to discount what these guys have contributed at all, but we have to be honest. These guys were brought in by Shula when we were at an absolute recruiting low point. They are simply not the caliber athletes that Saban is currently bringing in and with the exception of Ma Johnson (heaven forbid) will not see any meaningful playing time this year or next.
Some of the younger guys that, unfortunately, probably start looking to take their careers elsewhere include Alex Watkins, Robert Lester (since we only recruited him to get Julio), and Matchett or Preyear (we don’t need 30 scholarship RBs). Also, althought it’s a shame since he’s such a great athlete, I would be shocked if Zo Lawrence is still around when the season kicks off.
So, all in all, shoudn’t be hard to get down to 85 and I’m sure Saban will have no problem working it out.
I am glad you joined RBR to just post that, obviously you get "it" (sarcasm)
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
you can't
just let go of a guy just because he’s not as good of an athlete. I know what you are saying but you are walking on a very tight rope. We are still in a rebuilding project and just because they aren’t as good as one of the new guys, isn’t a reason to just cut and run.
Now, if they are causing problems, not showing up to work outs, being lazy, or something of that sort, then i say let em go. But lets not become the evil that we so greatly argued that we aren’t.
he's got a valid point about matchett preyear and lawrence
though i certainly hope he’s wrong about matchett and lawrence at least. (sorry jermain)
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jul 17, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
so we need to boot Preyear who has been on campus since January '09 , after med gray shirt?
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
no i'm saying i wouldn't be supprised if a player burried on the depth chart elects to go somewhere else
we’ve already had 4 guys leave the team to go play somewhere else this offseason. it’s not a deplorable practice. i dont want to see any of the guys go, but i understand the motivation for ht ones who go to get playing time elsewhere. i wont hold that against them either. do you?
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jul 17, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
my point was:...
…how can any of us outsiders pass judgement, when we do not know all of the facts involved?
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly..we can’t suggest who should stay or go…cause we can’t see what they do behind the scene.
"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant
I have
no prob if a guy decides on his own to seek playing time elsewhere….thats his decision.
"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant
exactly
and so if they’re buried on the scout team and would rather play for Troy or wherever, then CNS should grant em a release and wish them well. they have already contributed to the team just by being a member of the team ,participating, encouraging teammates and such. if they want to go start and get carries, i dont blame em for wanting to leave.
i really would hate to see lawrence and matchett leave because i watched alot of their youtubes and have been waiting to see em on OUR field.
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jul 17, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
of course!
My point is and will always be…if they give their all, they should always be given another year. No matter how far back on the depth chart they are…
Eventually, this will take care of itself.
"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant
"Can't" or "shouldn't"?
You can not renew their scholarships for any reason or no reason. They’re one-year promises.
by PeteHoliday on Jul 17, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
There is a basic that I did not know
For some reason I always thought it was a 4 year promise that could only be taken away by the university for a very good reason. That doesn’t make sense though. There is no way of knowing how a player will perform before he even arrives on campus. I think I will go back and re-read the article now and it will all make more sense to me.
I have to either stop drinking.... or drink more
by LifelongBammer on Jul 17, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Someone
correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe schollys were at one time multi-year promises but the rule changed to the current, 1 year at a time until eligibility is gone set up.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
These are kids...
….that have come to play for Alabama in good faith. If you want to follow a team that will “treat people like a business” then follow the NFL. I do not support throwing out names of kids that might or might not be “good enough” for the team. Especially coming from someone who I would assume has no association with our ahtletic department and therefore can’t be judge on any player’s said talent level. Kids man…kids….not professionals.
now here is a sticking point for me...
…when do “kids” become adults?
Absolutely, throwing out names is pretty screwed up.
However, giving everyone ribbon for participation just doesn’t work. Saban and the UA Athletic Department, are going about it the correct way. They give these young MEN the opportunity to come in and give their all, prove themselves worthy, and be retained. They regularly eveluate their progress, have individual, private counseling on strengths, weaknesses, and discuss how they feel they are contributing.
How many of you have had bosses who actually did their JOB as supervisor and given you the latitude and the feedback necessary to make yourself more successful?
I would personally rather someone be forthright with me, tell me my shortcomings, provide me opportunities to be successful, or provide me with the freedom to explore my options in pursuing my personal goals via other avenues. The alternative being let me wallow in my own incompetance, prevent me from growth, and overall allowing me to be a detriment to the organization as a whole.
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
i don't
think anyone is talking about those kids who give their all but just fall short in ability. Those kids deserve to stay. Its the ones who are giving their all and are falling behind that should be shown the door.
And yes…they are kids when they enter the program..shortly after they become men.
If you get an academic scholarship that requires you to hold a 3.0, and you give it your all and only get a 2.9, do you think you get to keep it?
No, you don’t.
There’s no reason that athletic scholarships should be any different. If you’re not contributing in a meaningful way to the team, why are we paying for you instead of someone who CAN contribute? You’re not being given a scholarship to “work hard”, you’re being given a scholarship to come help Alabama win football games. If you can’t do that, I don’t see why you should be able to keep your scholarship. Trying and failing is a fact of life, one that these young men need to get used to (if they’re not already).
+1000
and I’m getting tired of people suggesting that those who don’t keep their scholarship for the reasons you mention, is somehow a sinsiter practice.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
look
we aren’t talking about 2 star guys here who are terrible athletes…most of the guys on our roster are at very least a higher 3 star- 5 star…and from what we have heard/seen…there isn’t much difference in 3 star- 4 star and 4 star- 5 star…
Im also talking about young players. It takes some players a few years to grasp or mature into the star they can be…But im not suggesting Saban has or will cut a guys early for not being a good athlete. So no, i don’t think he’s sinister.
So if a guy by his third year is still not cutting it and we felt he should be by now, then i say lets go our separate ways.
We are all saying the same thing guys…and that is..Saban knows what he’s doing…
"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant
sweet. I am unemployed, am I a kid again?
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I wonder how my parents would react, if I told them to pay my damn bills?
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
my advice to you is to do what your parents did
get a job sir! your revolution is over! condolences, the bums lost. do you hear me lebowski!?! the bums will always lose!!!
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jul 18, 2009 2:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm talking about my rug, man. It really tied the room together.
technically, the old “gubment” will be paying me to go to school, including my housing, when the fall semester starts. So, my job will be school.
I was being a drama queen….
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 18, 2009 7:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Kids...
…in football terms. Are they kids in life…no, they are young men. I am saying that we can’t arbitrarily throw out names of players that “need” to go when they aren’t professional athletes. This isn’t the NFL. I have no problems with anything anyone has said except KevKav throwing out names of players when he/she probably doesn’t have a clue.
then we are in violent agreement...lol
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Talk to The Great NCAA
They are the ones who imposed the arbitrary 85 limit which doesn’t make sense from a number of players required to prepare for a season. It is a business. probably one of the largest in Alabama from a $’s earned aspect.
The unamed expected casualties
I think it is classy not to name the expected casualties as other sites have done. I’m not condemning other sites since was eager to read thier predictions & so far they have been dead-on.
I wish all these players leaving the roster the best as they have left much sweat, blood and tears on the practice field. Most of these players like Kirschman are great examples of hard work that just got eclispsed by the sudden influx of elite talent. They should all hold their heads up high!! Sometimes the most you can give to the cause is to move on gracefully.
we also
have to remember.. these kids, that some feel should be “cast off” signed with us when no one else would…they might not be 5 star guys but they came here and bleed for Alabama…
That is a good point that you make
Bama certainly didn’t have much to offer them at that time. Had I been in that position I would have jumped at it because I’ve always loved Alabama but someone with any NFL aspirations would certainly have to look twice durning that period.
I have to either stop drinking.... or drink more
by LifelongBammer on Jul 17, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
who's advocating for the players to be "cast off"
as far as i’ve ever seen, brian cook asserted it was the inevitable result of CNS being better at coaching signing more dudes than richrod, i haven’t seen anyone (serious commenters, not trolls or king troll) suggest that we’ll actually “run off” kids for no reason other than “them not being good enough”.
i totally agree that these kids are basically Bama for life and that they each have made worthwhile contributions as it is.
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jul 17, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
hey man, that's your majesty King Troll to you
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions
oh man
i been over to that #$%& blog a couple times and flamed them. i’ll admit it. i actually had a lot of fun stirring up shit with those a-holes…
welcome to the SEC kiffykins...
by tempebamafan on Jul 17, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
well then
im reading comments the wrong way….
When people drop names, talk about making room for the 5 star studs and stuff like that, i assume they mean “if someone has to go, let it be the scrubs”….
My bad if im taking your comments the wrong way….
"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant
I agree with Red Tide
I kind of take issue with the term “kids” at some point. These “kids” are at a point in life that if they did not enter college then they would have to enter the work force. In the work force you are cut for lack of performance regardless of whether or not it is based in lack of ability or lack of effort. A kid in high school is entitled to the opportunity to get a high school education. That is not true with college. In college it must be earned every step of the way. No one would be denying these players a college education if cut. They would simply be placed in the same situation that every non scholarship student is in. They still have the opportunity to pay for and finish their education.
College is there to prepare young people for a cut throat real world. There is no recognition for participation and there shouldn’t be. That doesn’t prepare anyone for anything.
I have to either stop drinking.... or drink more
ok...
so if we sign a 3 star and a 5 star at the same position…say LB…do we expect them to perform at the same level? In a business, you have CEO’s and guys who work in the mail room. Trust me, those positions are handled in the same way…
Ill give you an example.
I use to manage multiple detail shops in the Atlanta area. We had three positions. Detailer, Delivery Clean up and Car Wash…I fired way more “Detailers” than car washers…why? Cause the car washers were brought in to do a simple job for a simple wage…the detailers i brought in to do a tough job for much higher pay…But no matter what. If i saw a guy struggling at a job, i didn’t just fire him. We sat down and tried to figure out whats wrong…If i had to, i moved them to a different position to help him out. Most of the time, i fired guys for not showing up, getting arrested, crashing cars, stealing etc…but never for trying hard but not being all that great.
Its the same in football…When we sign a 3 star guy, we do so knowing he probably isn’t as good as the 5 star but hope he can contribute….maybe only in mop up time or on special teams….hopefully he turns out to be a diamond in the rough…which i found many times with the car washers….but they all serve a purpose, big or small.
you do realize that is what I said to begin with, right?
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
yep
i was going off of this statement
There is no recognition for participation and there shouldn’t be.
That is a harsh statement that I made
but it is a true to life statement and life is what college is preparing these young men for. I think that you are probably more compassionate in nature than I am and there is certainly no shame in that.
I am not in the private sector I work in the public sector. I have been a police officer for 20 years and now a supervisor/sergeant. I have to look at my shift as a group. If there are shortcomings with particular individuals then the outcome can be far more grave than losing a football game. That is the reason that I tend to be less compassionate with members that have shortcomings whether it is natural ability or just plain not trying. I agree with you though. I too have far more tolerance with someone who lacks the natural ability than the one who isn’t trying.
I have to either stop drinking.... or drink more
by LifelongBammer on Jul 17, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
i
think we are saying/thinking the same way…but going about it differently…
"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant
“First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game.”
– Paul “Bear” Bryant
it is a great quote. and it underscores something this kind of navelgazing overlooks – there are a lot more factors going into the assessment of a player on the team that we can assess from the outside looking in. add to that the opaque nature of the entire scholarship process that pete points out and it reveals that drawing absolutes is a fools errand.
i appreciate OTS analysis and i think it’s an important piece for folks to read in order to get a better feel for where the program is on this issue, but there is a real need to keep a sense of perspective on the underlying uncertainty inherent to this type of analysis.
Sure
As long as that person serves a purpose that has the most benefit to the organization. How long is that business going to last though if you keep that person on despite a lack of ability and deny a newcomer with much greater ability. I certainly agree that cutting someone should be a last resort. I certainly would not expect a 3 and 5 star player to play on the same level but for any organzation to have the highest level of success the 5 star has to win out in the end. Let’s not forget that there is also a high level of responsibility to everyone else in that organization/team. I believe that you are letting down the group to protect one person if you keep that person simply because he/she is doing their best but is a detriment to the group as a whole. Keep retaining the 3 star car washers just because they are doing their best and passing over the 5 stars because there isn’t room for them and the organization goes under. When that happens everyone loses their job.
I think that you are talking about what is fair and that is important but the real world is rarely fair. If life was fair we wouldn’t have prisons and Children’s Hospital on the same planet.
I have to either stop drinking.... or drink more
by LifelongBammer on Jul 17, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
but if we do
what you are suggesting…and if you aren’t suggesting this then let me know…is that we should “cut” a guy off a team cause he doesn’t have as much ability than someone else? We are becoming the evil that Brian Cook talked about.
Like Bamagrad said in a early post, evaluating talent is a hard thing to do. It take experience and know how. We can sit here all day long and suggest who should stay and who should go, but thats not up to us. Thats Saban’s job. And call me a homer or unrealistic, but i don’t believe that Saban would cut a guy for giving his all but coming up short.
"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant
I don't know. I haven't read Brian Cook's article
I think there is, as you stated, all kind of different solutions to that problem. Maybe repositioning him, I think you suggested that. Maybe there is somewhere where he can contribute better. If I have to choose between retaining a 3 star and taking on a 5 star, providing that the question is just that simple which it usually isn’t, my usual inclination would be to look to the betterment of the organization as a whole rather than the individual. If that makes me evil then all I can say is guilty as charged. Remember, we are cutting them, not killing them. They are simply being returned to the ranks of every other non scholarship student out there.
You are right though, this is all just fodder for an off season blog. As far as what Saban would do, I have no idea. He strikes me as the type of personality that believes all the leasons that need to be learned are learned in the process that it takes to win. If I had to put money on it, I would bet that he will try everything possible to help the athelete but in the end he would field the best team possible for the good of the team as a whole. I don’t know the man though.
I have to either stop drinking.... or drink more
by LifelongBammer on Jul 17, 2009 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions
"Lessons" I mean
My spelling is a bit off today too.
I have to either stop drinking.... or drink more
by LifelongBammer on Jul 17, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's not...
…call them kids, then. Let’s call them young men. While I totally condone the way CNS and his staff have been handling this issue, I still don’t like to see us denigrate these young men by throwing their names out there like garbage. We all know it happens, that it has to happen, that it should happen. That’s no reason to contribute to the shame and/or disappointment these young men may be experiencing while we’re playing our guessing games. Keep it to yourself, yo.
by NiceLittleSaturday on Jul 17, 2009 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Coach Saban
knows what he’s doing. He’ll balance the checkbook.
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
Exacty. It is what it is. Coach Saban has a plan. Enjoy the ride.
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Channeling BOL there...
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
but then I wouldn't be mocking BOL posters...
Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant
by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 17, 2009 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
New Rule
Bama – Unlimited Scholarships
Everyone else – 75
All in favor?
MATRIX: Bennett, I thought you were--
BENNETT: Dead? You thought wrong. Ever since you had me thrown out of the unit, I've been waiting to pay you back. Do you know what today is, Matrix? Payday.
so let it be written..so let it be done…
"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant
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