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The University's NCAA Appeal

After reading the appeal, Coach Saban looks pretty confident that the wins will be reinstated.

More photos » by Butch Dill - AP

After reading the appeal, Coach Saban looks pretty confident that the wins will be reinstated.

Back in June, when it was announced that Alabama would be appealing the sanctions imposed for the textbook case, RBR contributor outsidethesinelines asked: "appealing what and with what rationale?"

As of this afternoon, we have the answer to both of those questions.

OTS was correct that neither the fine, nor the public censure, nor the length of probation were the targets of the appeal. Instead, the University focused solely on the vacation of wins. He also nailed, in some form, most of the arguments presented in the appellate brief.

The arguments laid out in the brief address the issue from a few different angles. First, the University argues that the penalties depart from precedent in other, similar textbook cases. It then points out this case differs substantially from other cases in which wins have been vacated. The failure of the Committee on Infractions to give Alabama's cooperation sufficient credit is next, followed by claims that the penalties are inconsistent both with the general requirements of the appeals committee and with the guidelines for reinstatement of ineligible athletes.

The appeal asks for the vacated wins portion of the penalty to be reversed in their entirety, and they make (as you might expect) a fairly convincing case. Read on for more details.

Star-divide

The Standard of Review

Some comments have expressed concern that the University faces an uphill battle due to the change in the standard of review for appeals. The change was fairly straight-forward. Prior to January 1, 2008, in order to be successful on appeal, you had to demonstrate that the penalties were "excessive and inappropriate." After that date, you had to show that the penalties were "excessive such that it constitutes an abuse of discretion."

This seems, on its face, rather damning. What it is important to note, however, is that the discretion that it must be demonstrated has been abused is not the discretion of the NCAA as a whole or the rule-makers. Instead, it it the Committee on Infractions whose discretion is being judged. There are a bunch of rules that the COI must follow -- some of them are explicitly stated in the NCAA Bylaws, but others exist only as precedent handed down by the appeals committee. It is the University's claim that the vacation of wins penalty ran afoul of both of these types of rules and, therefore, constituted an abuse of discretion.

The appeals committee released a decision in the Alabama State infractions case at the end of June. In that decision they expand on what constitutes an abuse of discretion. Specifically, they noted:

an abuse of discretion in the imposition of a penalty occurs if the penalty: (1) was not based on a correct legal standard or was based on a misapprehension of the underlying substantive legal principles; (2) was based on a clearly erroneous factual finding; (3) failed to consider and weigh material factors; (4) was based on a clear error of judgment such that the imposition was arbitrary, capricious, or irrational; or (5) was based in significant part on one or more irrelevant or improper factors.

Note that the presence of any one of those factors constitutes an abuse of discretion. Alabama argues in their brief that all of those factors are present. This isn't unusual -- one would expect the University to claim all five are present even if some of those claims are significantly weaker than the others because you never know what is going to convince a person. That said, most of their arguments, in my opinion, are pretty solid.

 

Textbook Precedents

The main argument advanced here is simple: there have been four similar textbook cases. In every single one of them, the infractions involved were more severe, and in every one of them the penalties were less severe and none of them involved a vacation of wins. You can read the PDF linked above if you want all of the nitty gritty details, but here are a few tidbits that stood out:

  • Three of the four cases cited the offending school for Lack of Institutional Control. Something expressly not present in this Alabama's case.
  • Two of the cases involved schools that were made aware of their infractions but failed to self report.
  • Every one of the other cases involved other infractions as well in addition to the textbook infractions.
  • Three of the other cases involve systems where the students were given cash credits at the bookstores (and told their balances at each transaction).
  • One case involved students buying things other than books with their cash allotments.

The appellate brief also contains a nice chart, presumably so that the the appeals committee cannot possibly miss the glaring departure from precedent. I've reproduced that here because it's so damn interesting:

School Lack of Inst. Controll? Investigative Issues Other violations or Factors? Wins Vacated?
Ball State Yes Yes -- Ball State "failed to investigate and report violations" Yes -- Significant practice issues. Credit give at bookstore. No
Temple No Yes -- Fraud and unethical conduct in tennis. Secondary issues. None for textbook issues (only for fraud in tennis)
Weber State Yes Yes -- Credit give at bookstore, resulted in personal items being acquired. No
TSUSM Yes Yes -- "failed to conduct adequate investigations" despite notice; involvement of conference commissioner required. Yes -- violations of practice rules by football. Amounts greatly exceeded Alabama. No
Alabama No No -- violations were self-discovered and self-reported No Yes

 

In only a few cases were scholarships lost and they were all specifically for other infractions, not the textbook violations.

The basic point being made here is a simple one: these are four examples (the only four that really compare) of cases that were at least as bad, if not worse, and not single victory has ever been vacated for textbook issues. The University argues that such a clear departure from precedent, absent any further explanation as to why, is a clear abuse of discretion.

 

Vacation-of-Wins Precedent

The appellate brief argues that this case doesn't line up with past precedent on the vacation-of-wins, either. They point to the University of Oklahoma's successful appeal in which the appellate committee held that the COI failed to "analyze the factors relevant to a vacation of wins and failed to analyze and weigh the institution's cooperation."

The appeals committee laid out four factors in the OU case that are relevant to the vacation of wins:

  1. Academic fraud. (None present in the Alabama case)
  2. Serious intentional violations. (None present in the Alabama case)
  3. Direct involvement of a coach or school administrator (Not present in the Alabama case)
  4. A large number of violations. (Only two present in the Alabama case)

That last point is one that might have you scratching your head. Don't feel bad if you're confused: the COI couldn't get it right, either. The COI mentioned several times the large number of violations. In so doing, they were misinterpreting their own rules. In fact, all 200-something secondary violations were aggregated into just one major infraction. The second major infraction was for failure to monitor.

Had each of the individual violations been found to be major, point 4 might not weigh in favor of Alabama, but since they were held as secondary violations aggregated into a single major infraction, it does not apply.

 

The University's Cooperation

Three quotes are really all that are needed to tell the story on this one. First, from the decision in the OU appeal:

As we also stated in the Mississippi report, and repeated in our Howard University report: "Where an institution fully accepts its membership obligations and makes every effort to participate in and assist the enforcement process, its conduct must be a significant factor in determining and imposing penalties.The chief executive officer who requires his or her institution to open itself to the NCAA enforcement process, often in the face of powerful opposition, must be supported by the Association.

Next, the relevant portion from the report of the Committee on Infractions where they "considered" Alabama's cooperation:

the committee considered the institution's cooperation in this case and determined that the cooperation exhibited by the institution [was] consistent with its obligation under Bylaw 32.1.4, Cooperative Principle, which requires member institutions to cooperate in investigations.

Finally, the University's take on the two quotes above:

[T]he sentence appears to be little more than boilerplate. . . [T]he University of Alabama found, reported, and fixed the violations at issue. . . . But for the University's significant cooperative efforts, this major infractions case would never have existed.

 

The Requirements of the Committee on Infractions

The appeals committee's decision in the University of Mississippi case laid out seven factors that must be considered when assessing penalties. Below is a summary  of those seven factors as they relate to the current case, for more detail, check out the full report, pages 24-27.

  1. Nature, number and seriousness of the violations: Here, we're talking about one major violation and failure to monitor. Alabama argues that while this factor was considered, the COI misapplied the facts, stating that there were numerous violations when there were just two.
  2. Conduct and Motives of the Individuals Involved in the Violations: The University reminds us that of the 201 athletes involved, only 22 of them knew they were doing anything wrong and even those 22 didn't realize that this was impermissible with the NCAA -- they just thought they were screwing the University. This point has some sub-factors, all of which seem to cut in favor of the University. See the full report for those.
  3. Corrective Actions Taken by the Institution: To quote the mantra echoed in Alabama's appellate brief: "this was a self-discovered, self-investigated, self-reported, and self-remedied case."
  4. Comparison of the Penalty or Penalties Imposed: See the two sections above on comparisons to textbook and vacation-of-wins cases.
  5. Institutional Cooperation in the Investigation: See the section above on that.
  6. Impact of Penalties on Innocent Student-Athletes and Coaches: The vast, vast majority of the impact from the penalties is on innocent parties.
  7. NCAA Policies Regarding Fairness in, and Equitable Resolution of, Infractions Cases: (try to muffle your laughter, please, Alabama fans) The appeal comes back to the comparisons listed in the two compare-and-contrast sections above. The appeal also cites an appellate decision in which the COI is instructed to "explain the facts or circumstances which lead them to depart from any pattern established by prior cases," such explanation is notably absent from the COI's report.

In short, this is UA basically saying that the COI did nothing it was charged with doing, thereby abusing its discretion.

 

Guidelines for the Reinstatement of Ineligible Student Athletes

The NCAA guidelines for reinstating student athletes contains instructions for how to handle cases of extra benefits. Those calculations, according to the appeal, max out at a suspension for 30% of the season for violations above $500.

Coincidentally (or not), all of the athletes found to have received lots of extra books were suspended by the university for . . . you guessed it . . . 30% of the season. In the case of the football team, this was 4 games.

The University points out that assessing a vacation of wins in addition to the imposed suspensions is wrong for two reasons: first, it doubly punishes the same offense. Second, it imposes a 300% penalty for an infraction that for which the penalty is supposed to be 30% at maximum.

The closing sentences of this section from the University's appeal is so good it bears quoting:

Such a penalty is unfair to the other student-athletes involved, unfair to the coaches involved, and amounts to little more than an Orwellian attempt to rewrite history, to the detriment of dozens, if not hundreds, of uninvolved parties. The same is arbitrary, irrational, and an abuse of discretion.

The bottom line being that these athletes had already been punished in accordance with the NCAA guidelines long before the University ever appeared before the COI.

 

In Closing

One would be foolish to assume they can predict what any branch of the NCAA will do at any given time, but after reading the appeal, it wouldn't be at all surprising to me if the vacated wins were reinstated.

This is not because I believe the penalty to be absurd for the infractions committed (which I do), but because the COI made some huge mistakes in the way they went about explaining the penalties and their reasoning. Had they taken the time to address all of the above issues and had they come up with some ways that the Alabama case was different from the other textbook cases or different from the other vacation-of-wins cases, they might have given the appeals committee some room to tell Alabama to take a hike.

As it stands, however, the COI's report is rife with the kind deficiencies that simply beg to be overturned on appeal.

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I'm a law student...

… and, while I haven’t read the brief myself, it sounds like the University has some damn fine compliance lawyers. If I were on an appellate court and I saw that brief on appeal, there had better be some compelling evidence on the other side for me not to overturn it. And since we know there is no such thing, it will be a travesty of justice if those penalties stand.

by Espyonage on Jul 29, 2009 12:31 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately, the ncaa is not interested in evidence or justice..

…only in saving face. Even though this appeal seems to be a no-brainer, the ncaa always has their “because we said so” card up their sleeve. That said, I am cautiously optimistic.

Question: Does anyone have an idea when a decision will be reached?

by yellowhammer on Jul 29, 2009 6:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

BINGO...

Since when has the NCAA ever cared about fairness or consistency?

by String30 on Jul 29, 2009 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

which brings up one of the general rules in life:

if you want to win a dispute, you have to allow the party to save face in some measure. like the machiavelli quote (kinda, total paraphrase) “you are either kind to people or you destroy them, it is the minor injuries which men will try to find revenge for.”

hopefully the NCAA feels they have enough precident established in the relm of overturning a decison, that they decide to do what is fair and right in our case. however i worry that they are under pressure to reinstate the Fla St wins as well. (wins which clearly should have been vacated) and they wont be in the mood to reverse both major rulings they made over the summer. and as far as public sentiment (not a shock at all given how stupid the average person is) is concerned, most people want to see forgiveness for grandpa as this is his last year, so we should overlook the decades of cheating allegations and the eventual proof and punishment for said cheating.

sadly we have to hope the NCAA’s COI is politically okay with overturning the decision, because logic, rules, and precedent, went out the window a long time ago

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jul 29, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a traveshamockery!

Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant

by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 29, 2009 12:46 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Was the a George Bushism?

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no

traveshamockery

Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant

by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 29, 2009 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is the most f'd up

standard of review I’ve ever, ever read: the bastard child of the APA, with no criteria linking the fact-finding to the “punishment” imposed. Good luck with that.

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jul 29, 2009 7:56 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

While they give case law credence,

I note that they DO NOT actually adopt those standards within the APA. Rather they are mere factors used to determine what is “excessive and inappropriate”. It permits the Cmte on Infractions to highlight one factor, ignore others and come to a predetermined conclusion. Whereas, in any other context, each of the NCAA’s “factors” are a distinct and separate ground for reversal. UGH.

I just won a t-shirt tearing contest against the Tennessee coaching staff

by Stuck in the Plains on Jul 29, 2009 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I read the appeal

and if the NCAA fails to give back the wins it just serves as another reminder that schools need to get out of the NCAA an institution that is set up to serve itself not the member institions, totally biased, and just down right unfair.

I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.

by 5026 on Jul 29, 2009 9:53 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Here I am

And I’m with you 5026. Nailed it. Again.

Comer4tide to Nico2.0: "How come I've never heard of any of your random songs?"
Todd to Comer: "Because if you had, he wouldn't listen to it. BOOM. Roasted."
Nico to Todd: "Shouldn't you be off voguing somewhere?"

by BixBeiderbecke on Jul 29, 2009 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

im alone on this thought…but to me…we dodged a bullet…lets accept what little punishment the NCAA handed down…be thankful of the outcome…and move on. So we had to vacate some wins…who gives a damn?! We all know who won those games. Im just thankful we didn’t lose any scholly’s…

But again, i might be alone in that thought…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 10:09 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

well since it happen 40+ years ago…id say let it go…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

also..

we haven’t exactly been in the good graces of the NCAA over the last 20 or so years….IMO…eating some humble pie wouldn’t exactly be out of the question…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and

what the f*&k is that suppose to mean?

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am genuinely concerned that you let yourself be run over.

Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant

by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 29, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well then

you are really misinformed…i only “back down” when someone either proves me wrong (which can happen to everyone you know)…or i know i stepped over the line…the problem with some people is they can’t admit when they are wrong…you know…that whole pride thing.

And in what discussion or debate have i allowed someone to “run” all over me??

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ben is correct.

this discussion is not for here. if you would like to continue, I would be happy to.

feel free to email me at wildrover317@yahoo.com

 I was fairly abrupt with my statement. I should have been more PC, my shortcoming.

Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant

by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 29, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmm

i think not…im not in the mood to have someone tell me whats wrong with me…Thats what Pete is here for..

just joshin ya Pete…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

nah, it is a 2 way discussion, I am prior military I know the difference

Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant

by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 29, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

need to get personal here. I am of the opinion that its UA’s right to file an appeal, so why not? Especially since after reading Pete’s post they have a case.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jul 29, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

see my comment to Kleph

its not always about being right…the repeat window was open at the time of the infraction. The punishment might not have fit the crime, but we aren’t first time offenders…

Look its not that i just want to bend over and take it up the rear…but given our history with the NCAA..sometimes you just gotta take whats given to you and live to fight another day…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see your point

…but they can’t punish us MORE if we do appeal. If you think the punishment’s unfair, then just appeal. If you lose the appeal, nothing changes. It’s not like they can tack on additional sanctions for filing an appeal they dismissed or anything.

by Bama philosophe on Jul 29, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

bammer

you seem to think that filing an appeal will “stir the NCAA pot” and “keep us on their radar” or something similar. I’m just curious as to what’s making you think that? The NCAA has established an appeals process if an institution that was punished by the COI has a case that the punishment wasn’t justified. I see it as more of a system of checks and balances.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jul 29, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i kinda see where bammer is comming from

i’m just too prideful to accept that… honestly institutions are like organisms, they have a living memory. they dont want to get shown up by Bama, and from what i understand about the gene jelks thing way back when, our lawsuit against the NCAA right after did nothing to get us back in the good graces of the NCAA/COI (maybe we weren’t ever in the good graces, didn’t have a chance ever, or just actually showed our ass and acted a fool and got kicked out. but we aint in their good graces as it is.)

overall though, if they are going to write this shit down on paper and pretend to treat it like a quasi legal proceeding, then we should file an appeal and call their bullshit for what it is. and down the road if need be, fuck the NCAA. we’ll have to be on the forefront of organizing a new system w/ the other SEC schools.

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jul 29, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's the whole point

what they “think” of us is irrelevant.

rules are rules. apply them in a fair and unbiased platform, or they are not worth having.

Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant

by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 29, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed. in principal

but in reality this may wind up costing us further unfair treatment at the hands of the COI. for what it’s worth though, i say fuck em, they’re full of shit, we should appeal. i’m just aware from personal experience that having that attitude hasn’t always benefited me, but hey, at least i’ve always lived by my principals. (for the most part, i held my nose in 04 and voted for kerry…)

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jul 29, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'd rather go down swinging as well :)

Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. - Paul W. "Bear" Bryant

by TheRedTideConsumes on Jul 29, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't

want to be going “down” at all…hasn’t Bama been “down” enough over the years…its about time for us to start walking tall.

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

does that mean we get to smash mo-fos up w/ a 2 x 4?

cause if so, sign me up !!!!

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jul 29, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

If you are a true BAMA fan...

…and you don’t think you can walk tall every day of your life, then you need to just stop being a “fan”. And I agree with those that think you’re so wrong about forgetting the appeal and moving on. NEVER give up without a fight, especially when you’re fighting for justice.

You had me at "ROLL TIDE"!!!

by bamavicki on Jul 31, 2009 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

so which

horse did you ride in on today? looks to be pretty tall…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 31, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh and btw

If you keep reading you’ll see where i admitted that i was wrong. That i didn’t take in account that the infractions covered more than just football…

I admitted I was wrong..

So please…don’t question my fan hood…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 31, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, glad you saw the error...

…but it wouldn’t have mattered if it HAD been just football. The punishment doesn’t fit the infraction. Like BR07 said:

“Why don’t you ask the players on those teams (especially considering they went through three coaches and stayed to play at Bama) how important each and every win is.”

You have tried repeatedly to compare this appeal to FSU’s and the cases are nowhere near the same. I don’t think they should get their wins back due to the nature of their infractions, but I don’t think it’s an embarrassment that they appealed for Coach Bowden. It does not affect their future, only their past. Their future is already in motion with a coach-in-waiting.

Our future is bright, but that does not mean we should give up anything that is rightfully ours from the past. Our players and coaches from those years deserve our support and thanks just like the ones in the present and the future.

You had me at "ROLL TIDE"!!!

by bamavicki on Jul 31, 2009 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

go back and

read the comments from Bobby and the Admins at FSU…they were actually advocating taking a scholly reduction over vacating wins….thats asinine…

And being that i have a lot of connections in florida, so this isn’t just an opinion…FSU’s reputation has and is taking a big hit. Not just cause they have sucked it up on the field, but also what they do off it. Their PR director should be drawn and quartered…When i played in florida, FSU was it. If they wanted you…they got you…now…they might be 3rd in the state.

And i think that if our infractions were just in football…you might not have seen us argue the punishment…but who knows. The university felt it right to appeal….

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Aug 1, 2009 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

we sometimes (most of the time) forget on this

site that people are allowed to an opinion….thanks for at least “kinda seeing” were i was coming from…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

“I think you’re wrong” is a valid opinion.

by PeteHoliday on Jul 29, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's all good homie

we got like 5 weeks n change to go… i’m freakin dyin over here. i called the radio the other day to talk football, the host is like “why the pac 10 will suck this year, AGIAN, ASU will suck, AGAIN, and u of A will be only mildly better that suck, AGAIN.” and then he hung up on me. i was like. “a-hole, i wasn’t tryin to talk pac 10 ball!” anyway thats what i been up to. no one out here knows what the hell is up. they’re all usc fans. (ben, i’m looking in your direction when i refer to cluelessness and USC fan-dumb)

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jul 29, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking

of U of A, whats the feeling over there about Stoops? He was one of those hot assistants that everyone wanted and was considered a “can’t miss” hire. How short will the leash be this year ya think?

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jul 29, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm kinda of blown away

that they kept him around for last year, and then sure enough a win over ASU and BYU in the bowl. and stoops is sittin pretty, he’s bought himself a worry free off season at least. another year of the same results and ericson will be on the hot seat and stoops could start “building” something… FWIW i looked at their crap in the pre season mags, ASU figures to suck again, and Arizona has a chance to improve their record. so that pretty much kinda sucks. I hope gerald munns is healthy and keeps the starting Mike spot for ASU, that kid is a beast and his sister is a friend of mine. f the pussycats!!!

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jul 29, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oct 3 is the key for ASU

If they can get a win over Oregon State at home they have a great shot at starting the season 6-1 and line up a bowl big. If they drop that game things could head south in a hurry.

by UAinPHOENIX on Jul 29, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well there is your problem right there

What made you think any of the radio hosts here would be able to have an intelligent conversation about college football? Why would they discuss that subject when they can talk about how the D’backs suck for the 70th consecutive day? I never thought I would be in a situation where I would miss the Tim Brando show but here I am…

by UAinPHOENIX on Jul 29, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

bob kemp on 1060

he’s the only decent guy in town (bruce jacobs needs to in all likely hood will one day choke to death on a giant c%ck)

he musta been in a bad mood cause he was also talking about how much the dbacks suck for the 70th consecutive day.

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jul 29, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't pick up radio in my office

so I don’t get to listen to Kemp, just the drive time guys who are, for the most part, awful. The morning is particularly bad, with the screaming jackass Spanier on 1060 and the moron that sounds like a dumber version of Puddy from Seinfeld on 620. I usually listen to Dan Patrick which isn’t great but is at least tolerable unlike the other stations.

I am just happy on TV that Ch3 picked up the SEC package so I wont have to get Gameplan this year.

by UAinPHOENIX on Jul 29, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

whaaaaaah?

channel 3 picked up the ESPN regional thing? this….. changes…. everything…. channel 3 is in HD over the air too…. i might not be upgrading my directv/ordering gameplan after all. (HD service is a B%tch, costs too much money and you get compressed=crappy channels anyway, the best HD service available is broadcast over the airwaves for free…)

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jul 29, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep, there hasn't been anything mentioned locally

but Ch3 was on the list of affiliates that SEC put out in their announcement of the TV deal.

by UAinPHOENIX on Jul 29, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey speaking of Spanier, I know this is going way back, but why the hell did he stop doing the gunshot thing to bad callers? That was only reason to listen to that ass clown.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jul 29, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and then where does it end?

Are you going to let the NCAA make up new punishments on their whim?
There needs to be consistency in the rule of law.
UA didn’t deny wrongdoing. UA disagrees the fit of the punishment to the infraction.
If they are not being fair, then it is UA’s duty to stand up to that injustice. No one else will do it for them.
It almost sounds like you want the university to act like it got away with something, when it clearly didn’t.

by crimson37 on Jul 29, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It almost sounds like you want the university to act like it got away with something, when it clearly didn’t.

No…im not saying that. We just have to realize we aren’t first timers here. If this was our first ever infraction, then id say “HELL YEAH!! APPEAL THAT JUNK” but we aren’t…as sad as that is.

Im just looking at the embarrassment that is the appeal process of FSU and really hoping we don’t head down the same road. The future of Alabama football is too bright to worry about some win’s from the past…FSU on the other hand is trying to hold on to the past and by doing so, might just ruin its future.

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't want UA to lose sight of the future...

…and I’m aware of the repeat offender issue. I think that we agree on more than we don’t.
Using the repeat offender moniker to justify vacating wins is still revisionist history to me, though.
Perhaps the NCAA shouldn’t have fines or record changing powers. Perhaps their only authority should be over the regulation of recognized titles and the number of scholarships.
It doesn’t make sense that the citizens of the state of Alabama should have to pay for the disputed books through scholarship funds, then pay NCAA fines that double the monetary loss.
It would make more sense to lose one scholarship for one year than to pay a fine and/or vacate wins.
I’m glad that Bama didn’t lose any scholarships, but by what right does the NCAA have to invalidate the resumes of past players and coaches?

by crimson37 on Jul 29, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I totally

agree that the NCAA needs to revamp their procedures in handing down probations.

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

so, given this logic, any time we are accused of infractions..

we should just take it, because there is a history at alabama of such incidents. that sounds like what somebody like clay travis would argue. the fact is, every case is different and has to be judge individually. lumping it all together in such a manner is the grist for the lazy sports columnist/blogger – not the university administration and athletic department.

if we believe the punishment is unfair it is our responsibility to question it. period. moreover, you seem to be forgetting that this appeal includes every one of the sports affected. should track and field or tennis be made to suffer because of past cases that only involved the football team more than a decade ago? of course not. they deserve the full effort on the part of the university to see they are not unfairly punished by a flawed sanctioning process.

of course what you are really saying is you would prefer this issue to just go away so you won’t have to be bothered by it. but that’s an appallingly selfish point of view that, thankfully, the university hasn’t allowed itself the luxury of considering. witt and moore have to consider the impact to all the athletes involved and do what they can to defend them. nobody else can do that. and this appeal makes it clear they take that responsibility quite seriously.

no matter how inconvenient it might be to the casual football fan.

by kleph on Jul 29, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

any time we are accused of infractions..we should just take it, because there is a history at alabama of such incidents.

Did i say that? No! What im saying is it’s not that big of a deal to vacate wins…especially when the punishment could have been worse…why could they have been worse? Cause we were still under the repeat offender window! If we weren’t…then i would have no problem appealing.

Now, maybe im taking this the wrong way. Perhaps, Bama is sayin “you can’t push us around, and we want to set a precedent for other schools to follow”…if thats the case, then by all means, fight! fight! fight!

But if we are doing this cause we think the NCAA was just mean…then we need to grow up and understand we are only here cause we couldn’t walk the straight and narrow.

course what you are really saying is you would prefer this issue to just go away so you won’t have to be bothered by it. but that’s an appallingly selfish point of view

Dont put words in my mouth….but sure…it would be nice for this to all go away…but not because it helps me…good god man. Do you understand that an entire generation of Alabama fans have lived almost their entire life under NCAA probation ?? We barely got to witness the ‘92 season…We didn’t get to watch the Bear…..is it too much to ask for Alabama to just say..“ok we screwed up..” and move on? Or do we constantly have to be under bright light of the COI??

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

look, let me make this even simpler...

you are commenting as a fan. to make a sweeping generalization about whether or not the university should be taking part in the appeal because how you feel about the football program is simply a myopic point of view. i’m certain members of, say, the basketball team have quite different feelings about this issue. but they – and all the other student athletes who, guilty or not, are affected by this – don’t have any direct recourse to address the decision by the NCAA. the university does and has done so with this appeal. which is their job. to not appeal this decision would be an abrogation of their responsibility to look out for the welfare of the students who attend the university.

by kleph on Jul 29, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And

to link kelph’s point to mine, lets keep in mind that its the NCAA that has established this process of appealing. A lot of you guys keep assuming that because UA is appealing, than thats going to somehow ruffle the NCAA’s feathers, and revenge may be in order down the line as a result. I just think thats a false assumption, or at least a baseless one. Its a system of checks and balances. If UA has a case for the COI handing down a punishment that wasn’t warranted, then UA is playing a key and vital role here in appealing. I don’t want to sound dramatic, but there is a “bigger picture” thing going on here as well.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jul 29, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly right, and let’s also remember that the NCAA isn’t some borg-like entity. Right now, we’re dealing with the appellate committee. Their job is to hear appeals. The only group we could even possibly “anger” with this appeal is the Committee on Infractions.

If the COI and the appeals committee get into a fight… guess who wins!

All that to say that no matter how pissed at us the COI is, they still have to punish us within the rules outlined by the bylaws and the appeals committee. If they don’t, their punishment will be overturned.

Further, if your assumption is that the COI has it out for us, I find it hard to believe that they would say “Well, they took those vacated wins on the chin, so we’re cool now.”

by PeteHoliday on Jul 29, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Im just coming from the standpoint that it would be nice to be in the good graces of the NCAA for just a little while…but i see and understand the reason for the appeal…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This appeal in no way affects whether or not we’re “in good graces” with the NCAA.

You get “in good graces” by not committing infractions, not by neglecting to ask the COI to follow the NCAA Bylaws and case precedent.

by PeteHoliday on Jul 29, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

good point

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

cant we just hire a minority ethnic population that the COI has been keeping down

and give them guns and international backing, and just, you know, install a more Bama Friendly regime? or is there any other party that we can provoke into attacking the COI? perhaps the division II management council is growing tired of division I’s constant showing off and running of the mouth? could they be pursueded into forming a coup de etat against the ruling group?

i’m just sayin is all. happens in latin america all the time…

welcome to the SEC kiffykins...

by tempebamafan on Jul 29, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice

piece kleph. Honduras in one of those Latin American countries with a constitutional government, which I was told by a native of that country it is actually one of the more stable in the region.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jul 29, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah...

…but it’s looking like it’s almost time to send lawyers, guns and money.

by kleph on Jul 30, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I take issue with this comment:
Did i say that? No! What im saying is it’s not that big of a deal to vacate wins…especially when the punishment could have been worse…why could they have been worse? Cause we were still under the repeat offender window! If we weren’t…then i would have no problem appealing.

Really? Why don’t you ask the players on those teams (especially considering they went through three coaches and stayed to play at Bama) how important each and every win is. Take the 2005 season, when our team played very well most of the year. It may not be a big deal to you, but if you have ever played sports you would understand the gravity of taking away wins that you rightfully earned.

I think the point Kleph is trying to make is that no one deprives you of your opinion, but when you make an opinion that you attempt to reinforce as either fact or what the majority of the fanbase believes, it comes across as pushy and myopic. Further, when you get defensive right off the bat at anyone who opposes your opinion and further justify it as truth, it reinforces this view of your post. Just an observance.

We are not the same persons this year as last; nor are those we love. It is a happy chance if we, changing, continue to love a changed person. ~W. Somerset Maugham

by BamaReturns07 on Jul 29, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

further twice? really. damn. grammer.

We are not the same persons this year as last; nor are those we love. It is a happy chance if we, changing, continue to love a changed person. ~W. Somerset Maugham

by BamaReturns07 on Jul 29, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

im having a bad day i guess but

When did i ever infer that what i was saying was Fact or that i was speaking for the fanbase as a whole? From the get go i said i probably was alone in my thought…

I then get sarcasm from Kleph and get called a patsy from TheRedTideConsumes…

I said it was an opinion and nothing more.

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

see...

sarcasm…when aimed at a person in an already pissed off mood…can be taken like…“Hey dumbass”….

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then again, “hey dumbass” is how 90% of sarcasm is intended, so it’s not a bad bet if you’re just playing the numbers.

by PeteHoliday on Jul 29, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you may have hit a couple of nerves

And that can be good on a blog sometimes.
I rarely post, but enjoyed the conversation today.
RollTide!

by crimson37 on Jul 29, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ya think?

I would never thought my little comment would have caused such a stir…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Voice of Reason Concurs...

You my friend are myopic patsy

Jealousy is the thread that holds TET threads together!

by The Voice of Reason on Jul 30, 2009 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+ a

Jealousy is the thread that holds TET threads together!

by The Voice of Reason on Jul 30, 2009 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah..thanks for the stimulating response…next time why don’t you add something of substance to the conversation instead of dog piling…

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 30, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what is this..

+a
+T stuff?

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 30, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if we just tell you....

…how are you going to learn?

by kleph on Jul 30, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

by you telling me...

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 30, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and again

i could be/ and by what a few have said, it looks like i am wrong…i hadn’t thought about the wins being vacated over a number of sports…not just football….

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

moreover, you seem to be forgetting that this appeal includes every one of the sports affected

You are correct..If i had remembered that…my original stance would not be the same.

"First, there are winners and know they are winners. Then there are the losers who know they are losers. Then there are those who are not winners but don’t know it. They’re the ones for me. They never quit trying. They’re the soul of our game."– Paul "Bear" Bryant

by bammer on Jul 29, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The NCAA is a rogue organization.

Made up of small minded, insecure academics. Being on an NCAA committee is about the biggest thing any of them will ever do.

by wey on Jul 29, 2009 8:46 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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