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The Case for 1941

ed.- bumped from the fanposts. kind of a controversial subject, and i tend to agree that there are "better" years in which alabama could claim a title (*cough* 1966 *cough*), but it's still a good read.

I titled this “The Case…” because at times I feel like a defense attorney in trying to explain and defend all things Bama.  Some say this desire to explain the “inconsistencies” created by the opposition comes from a sense of insecurity, I say it’s simply the desire to bring the ignorant to a place of enlightenment.  For years, I’ve defended and explained the championships from the 1920’s.  For years, I’ve fought off claims that Bama is dead and gone among the upper echelon of NCAA football.  However, a subject I always shied  away from was that of the 1941 National Championship claimed by the University of Alabama.

 

 

Star-divide

As more time has passed, the more I got to thinking about the fact that I got tired of ignoring it.  The nay-sayers have a right to know, and the faithful need to be informed as well.  Most may say that “it is what it is” and that should be acceptable, but that’s not the way I work.  Putting myself in their shoes: Had any other program won/claimed a national championship (especially a rival) given the final record and ranking of the 1941 Alabama National Championship Team, having dug no further than those two facts alone, I’d likely be up in arms as well. 

 

The face value facts:  Alabama finished 1941 with a record of 9-2, and a final AP ranking of 20.  Minnesota, the reining national champions, went undefeated at 8-0.  Texas, at 9-1-1 even seemed a more viable candidate for the NC, and also received a NC vote.  So what’s the problem?  There is an undefeated, major team (I say “major” because two other teams went undefeated as well), Bama wasn’t relatively close to matching that record, so why would anyone vote Alabama as the national champion, and furthermore, why would Alabama accept the vote?  Surely they didn’t just take any ole vote that came their way, and turned and ran with it.  Surely there was a reason, something deeper, the rest of the story, so to speak, that no one of this generation would know about.  Well, come to find out, there is.

 

First, let’s take a look at the Final AP poll of 1941:

As you may or may not know, the final AP poll of that day was done after the regular season.  In fact, the “final” AP poll of 1941 was done while some teams still had 2 regular season games left.  So basically, the “final” AP poll was put out on November 29th, while teams like Texas, Texas A&M, and Mississippi St. (all teams who had a legit chance to still becoming champions) still had games left.  So essentially, the AP national champion was crowned before the regular season was even over.  And what’s more, Bama drops two spots after they throttled an 8-1 Miami team.  And forget the bowl game, where Bama beat a once beaten Texas A&M team, because bowl games weren’t taken into account at that time anyway.  And for all you AP advocates out there who still think it’s the final word on crowning a NC at the time, a 5-3 Northwestern team was ranked #11 in the “final” poll.  Northeast bias, much?  7 of the top 11 AP teams were northern teams, but that’s just conspiracy theory on my part.

 

Houlgate? Who the hell, and why can we legitimately take that as a NC vote?

Glad you asked.  In 1941, Houlgate was the oldest remaining recognized system for crowning National Champions.  It began in 1927, and was highly regarded for its systematic approach to finding out who the best team in the nation was.  In fact, it was the only system at the time that took strength of schedule into account, and which we’ll find out later, may have played a large roll in its final selection.  The AP poll was in its infancy, 5 years old to be exact, while Houlgate was on its 14th year of service.  You can essentially compare this to the AP poll versus BCS debate of 5 years ago.  The AP poll of that day was the opinion of 44, grossly uninformed writers who could only keep up with teams from around their general area (due to the overall lack of national coverage), which just happened to be the northeast for the most part. 

 

Let’s look at it this way: Think of the high school football teams around you, whether it’s 5, 10, or more.  Chances are, if you halfway keep up with the whole gamut of local games each weekend, or even read the final scores in the newspaper; you will come up with a list of about a third of those total teams that you think are good teams.  However, with the lack of national high school football coverage, you have no idea how these teams that you deem “good” could square up against teams across the country.  All you know is that Mountain Brook in Birmingham is 9-1, while the 6A state champion from Pennsylvania went 8-2.  Not knowing anything about Penn high school football teams, you’re limited to looking at records to determine which of these teams is better.  You may even look at the records of the teams they lost to in order to give you a better idea, but how much more inaccurate could this be?  This was the life of an AP voter in the 40’s.  They only knew their Big 8 schools, the military schools, Ivy League, and Notre Dame, and the rest of the nation was compared to them (thus NWestern finishing out at #11 with a 5-3 record).  Therefore, other schools were essentially doomed to mediocrity after one loss or tie, especially if the loss or tie came against a team that was equally as unknown to these writers.  Also, the poll was changing its makeup every year at that point to try to come up with the best system.  At this time, they were still trying to get all the bugs out.  Houlgate, however, took a mathematical approach, which saw each team as equals on a level playing field.  I am sure it has its flaws as well, but it simply had to be better than the opinions of a handful of ill informed, geographically locked people who surely didn’t take this as seriously as we would like to believe they did today. 

 

So, ultimately, I’m not saying that the AP was complete garbage and Houlgate was essentially the only way, I’m just trying to overcompensate for each to get people to realize that they were, at a minimum, on a level playing field, and that Houlgate deserves the same, if not more, respect as the AP poll of that time.

 

But Bama still had two losses:

Now it’s about to seem quite homerific if you’re on the outside looking in, but you have to understand that I’m just trying to take a look at what would make the Houlgate System pop out Bama as its NC, and why Bama would take it with a clear conscious. 

 

One loss came at the hands of a one loss Mississippi State, 14-0.  Mississippi State’s only loss that season was to an undefeated Duquesne, who Massey (the BCS Massey) has as his system’s national champion in his retro-ratings.  The other loss came at the hands of an 8-2 Vanderbilt, which I’m sure was not the proudest of moments, but nothing to hang your head about.  But still, with two losses, even to quality opponents, something still must lie under the surface to emerge over Minnesota and Texas.

 

A look at Texas:

First off, this team was voted NC by Williamson. They, however, do not consider this as one of their 4 national titles, as Williamson never really had much clout in determining a champion.  Moreover, in all honesty, this season’s title was Texas’ to lose.  After the first 6 games of the season, Texas had pitched three shutouts and given up more than a touchdown only once while playing arguably the nations toughest schedule at that point.  But upon becoming the AP #1 team in the land going into game 7, pissing the bed was in order.  In comes 3-3 (and eventual 3-6-1) Baylor who played the Longhorns to a 7-7 tie.  The following week, Texas loses outright to a very decent (and eventual 7-3-1) TCU team, 14-7.  That two week span was more than even a 23-0 whipping of the #2 Texas A&M team the following week could overcome for a southern team in an AP world.  So was Bama better than Texas?  Probably not, but Bama’s two losses combined didn’t look nearly as bad as Texas’ tie.

 

A look at Minnesota:

Reining national champions, undefeated season, they’ve got bias (for being national champs less than a year ago while playing the toughest schedule in the nation) on their side and they’ve won all their games, how could they not be national champs?  Well, if you’re the AP, and you make a severe habit of only going by record, their golden (gophers).  However, if you look at their opponents, you’ll soon realize it’s the one eyed paraplegic ruling a conference full of blind quadriplegics.  You would be hard pressed to find a worse schedule for any national champion in history.  I realize that you can only play your schedule, but if that’s the case, then why didn’t Duke or Duquesne get some undefeated love?  Duke had more convincing wins than Minnesota, while Duquesne and Minnesota have relatively identical schedules strengths, according to Massey.

 

Alabama/Minnesota, side by side:

 

Record:

Minnesota:        8-0

Alabama:          9-2

 

Opponents’ Record (Teams played with winning records)

Minnesota:        31-35-1 (3)

Alabama:          69-23-2 (9)

 

Strength of Schedule (according to Massey’s retro-ratings):

Minnesota:        41 out of 119

Alabama:          5 out of 119

 

AP Ranked Teams Played (either ranked during week played or ranked in final AP poll)

Minnesota:        2

Alabama:          5

 

Teams Played Who Finished With 2 or Fewer Loses:

Minnesota:        1

Alabama:          7

 

Ok, I realize that I’m beating the “schedule/opponents” thing to death, but the difference is staggering.  And based on my findings, a team’s record was the main tool to base rankings on in that day, so I am trying to take that a small step further to see why in the world this team was considered the best in the nation.  I mean, it would seem to me that this team is one point away from tying a very mediocre Northwestern team and being essentially one of the many forgotten teams in college football history, but unfortunately, the exact reasonings and other intangibles are as lost as the sands of time.

 

Rankings, by design, are supposed to yield the best teams from top to bottom.  Rarely does that feat hold true, but over time I believe the process has gotten better.  Every system used to provide the task of determining the best has its flaws, nowadays it being evident that a one loss team will be ranked higher at the end of the year the earlier that loss comes.  In yesteryear, the problem was the lack of national exposure for even the elite of college football teams, and those teams having a lot less “wiggle room” as far as losses and ties are concerned. 

 

So the question in this case is:  Which team is better?  A team who can win 9 out of 11 games amid the nation’s toughest schedules, while having 2 down weeks due to injury or simply not being game ready (e.g. Bama, Mississippi State, Texas)?  Or is it the team who can win all 8 games, while only having to exert themselves once or twice in the midst of powering through the remainder of a schedule that can only be described as insufficient (by any standards)?  The answer to this question will directly support or refute the claim that Alabama is deserving of at least a share of this national title.  The choice is solely yours on a personal level, however, if you chose the latter, Utah’s got a question for you?  WTF!?!

FanPosts are just that; posts created by the fans. They are in no way indicative of the opinions of SBN and the authors of Roll Bama Roll.

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Nice...

…work, TD. Thanks for educating me about the Bama championship team about which I knew the least. We certainly have a flawed system (both then and now), but I have to lean toward hypothetical team #1.

As you alluded, it’s the same issue we had last year between Florida and Utah. Interestingly, I haven’t heard a single Bama fan who thinks Utah deserved the title more than UF. We lost to both teams, so we’re not picking the team that beat us over the team we beat, or vice versa. Either way, we’re still ending with losses to the top two teams in the country. Who cares which is which?

I attended both games, and UF clearly looked like the better team, especially on defense. The biggest difference seems to be that we played UF with our O-line at full strength, yet still lost, while we played most of the game vs. Utah with two All-Americans missing from that same line.

Furthermore, UF lost to Ole Miss, whom I would have picked to beat any team Utah played last year (including Bama minus Johnson and Smitty). They also beat UGA, whom I would have picked over any team Utah played. I know, I know, they also schedule like little girls out of conference, but I would still rather play Utah’s 08 schedule than UF’s.

You may say there is some SEC bias involved, which may be true for some, but I freakin’ hate UF, and I would love to say that Utah was the better team. I just can’t. Rats.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jul 8, 2009 3:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

p.s.

All apologies to MBM, whom I like much more than any Gator fan I’ve ever encountered.

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jul 8, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Best case I've heard for it yet,

but I still don’t think we should claim it.

First, we didn’t even recognize it as one of our NC’s until the 1980s. That just doesn’t sit right. I know the ones from the 1920’s weren’t recognized until much later also, but it’s not the same thing really. Even though the championships from the twenties were claimed after the fact, who has a better case than the undefeated winner of the Rose Bowl? (I know we tied Stanford one year, but we were both undefeated, so that’s about as clear of a co-champion scenario as you can get).

An aside, people who claim Alabama shouldn’t recogize NC’s prior to the AP because they are “retroactive” is ignorant or being intellectually dishonest because they want to rip Alabama for claiming 12. You’ll notice they don’t point to a more-deserving team, but only say there was really no such thing as a national championship in those days. Well, even if they didn’t call it that, the winner of the Rose Bowl was the natinoal champion.

Back to 1941

Second, if you’re willing to discount a loss or two and go by who was playing the best against the toughest schedule, FSU would have about five national championships and USC would have at least two more in the last decade. It’s typically the case that a loss knocks you out of the NC hunt until the teams in front of you lose. This is true among the traditional powers, regardless of strength of schedule. Teams like Utah are looked at differently. I’m not saying this makes any sense, it’s just the way it is. And i’m speaking in general here, there are no doubt exceptions.

Third, none of us are in a position knock the AP for crowning a champion before all the games had been played as we’ve benefited from that practice with the AP and in 1973, with the UPI.

But like I said, great, well-thought out post. You present your argument better, even though I think I’m right.

by Nick's Hat Band on Jul 8, 2009 3:18 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I can't...

…agree with the FSU/USC stuff, but I think I see what you’re getting at, anyway.

And I would totally trade the 1941 team for the 1966 team any day of the week (sorry, 1941 team).

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jul 8, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It just seems like every other year in the late 80's/early 90's, FSU

would choke in the season opener, then go on a tear. At some point, Bobby Bowden would be campaigning for AP votes, claiming FSU was the best team in the nation “right now.” But those teams were punished for their lapses, even though they may have been the best team in the nation at the time the bowls were set or championships voted. FSU also played a killer schedule back then. They’re a better example than the recent USC teams, whose schedules were not as strong.

My point is, unless the differences in SOS are extreme, NC voters have rarely passed over an undefeated powerhouse (eg ‘41 Minnesota) in favor of a one or two loss powerhouse (’41 Alabama). If that’s the “system” we’re playing under, can you say Alabama should have been the NC in 1941? Because that would be the exception to the rule. You can say UA was better and would have beaten Minnesota, but that’s not the same thing as saying UA was more deserving of the national championship.

Also, reading my post from above, I see I typed “people ….is ignorant….” Oh the irony.

by Nick's Hat Band on Jul 8, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds

a lot like USC and Pete Carrol.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jul 9, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i feel 1941...

was a special case of sorts due to the fact that the best team(s) (whether you agree it was bama or not) did not get the chance to overcome tough losses due to a decent team walking through a schedule full of cupcakes. bottom line, it is obvious that minnesota was not the best team in the nation. everyone else in contention just helped them out by losing or tying at least teo games.

as far as FSU, they may have been the best team, but when there’s a #2 team that’s really close and can win more ballgames against quality opponents, you lose your argument. but when the level of competition is separated by obvious degrees such as in 1941, it’s rediculous to even keep them in contention for such a title. see utah last year, hawaii the year before, tulane in around 98. that is how u treat these teams. hell even duquesne in 1941 wasn’t give a decent shot due to a “weak” schedule, which ,as I alluded to, was very similar in caliber to minny’s.

"There's a lot of blood, sweat, and guts between dreams and success" - Coach Bryant

by TopDaddy on Jul 8, 2009 5:46 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Nice work...

Alabama is constantly being blasted by those below our stature (Aubarn… shocker) for, as they say, ‘laying claim to illegitimate titles’, yet they base those opinions on nonsensical logic and without looking into details.

Alabama has finished undefeated myriad times, yet we only lay claim to maybe half of those championships BECAUSE those are the only titles we can rightfully lay claim to. The pre-AP/UPI titles were claimed because we were Rose Bowl victors, not because polls voted us as champions. Half of the systems didn’t pick their champions until years later. This is the reason the Rose Bowl was the main attraction during that time period.

Every year after that we were voted champions either by the AP or UPI poll, excluding 1941 of course.

Barnies claim those to be bogus, but we still were selected champions and that’s what matters most. During that time period SEVERAL teams with one-loss was voted ahead of an undefeated team, just as a one-loss Florida team was BCS Champions over an undefeated Utah team. Catch my drift?

If Alabama claimed outright bogus titles, then why didn’t we claim a title for every year we finished undefeated? Simply because the AP or UPI poll did not select us as champions. Period.

Now the little trailer rats can look into our SEC titles in hopes of bringing out a flaw in them (much like their bogus 1988 and 1989 SEC titles where their sharing partners had MORE SEC victories than the barn did).

After spending seven wondrous years in the state of Alabama, never in my life have I seen fans, who claim to be loyal to one team, spend more time AUbsessing over the other more so than they do their very own.

by SanFranDude12 on Jul 8, 2009 8:18 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I have family on both sides of the rivalry. I have a few friends and 3 family members that are ex-players for both teams. So I have a lot of respect for UA, even though I am an Auburn fan.

I think Bama has a great history. I just don’t understand how the school can claim titles like 1941, when the program has won plenty of legitimate titles. I have no problem even acknowleging titles where Bama won the title but lost its bowl game because at that time, some selectors decided a champ before the bowl. Even if you took away the backdated titles and the 1941 title, Bama would still have more NC’s than any other team in the SEC and most teams in the country.

And Bama is not the only program to make a claim to questionable NC’s, so I can kind of understand why the school recognizes them. If ND, GaTech, etc… can claim them, then why can’t Bama?

by Jumpn_JackFlash on Jul 9, 2009 3:30 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

some selectors decided a champ before the bowl.

Not only that, but I’m pretty sure that the bowl games didn’t even count in NCAA record books back then.

"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken

by Bens4vcobra on Jul 9, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no problem

claiming 1941. In 41 the system of picking a mythical champion was not nearly as advanced as today and definetly regional. Houlgate, or Football Thesaurus seems to me to have had the most unbias in that day.

But the best Alabama team from 1934 until 1961 was the 1945 team. The went undefeated, did not have a close game (14 pts. was the closest) and killed USC in the Rose Bowl. These guys not getting a NC is a shame and just shows the media is, especially to the South in that day. Army got the nod in 45 because we were coming off the war and they were Army. But I’m convinced that Bama had a tougher schedule and if we had met them in bowl we would have won.

So, we should take 41, as we have a legit claim and we sure can’t take 45 when we really deserved it.

Personally I don’t care of Auburn wants to claim the “Peoples Championship” etc. as the system is flawed and even though I think Auburn was not the best that year, they did all they could do and going undefeated in the modern SEC should at least get you a shot at the NC.

I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.

by 5026 on Jul 10, 2009 6:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i agree...

with your assessment of the 45 team, however, according to massey, we had a SoS of 26 while army had 2.

"There's a lot of blood, sweat, and guts between dreams and success" - Coach Bryant

by TopDaddy on Jul 10, 2009 10:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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