Michigan's NCAA Troubles
by PeteHoliday on Feb 24, 2010 12:51 PM CST
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PrintI know that the NCAA Committee on Infractions isn't a well-regarded institution around these parts, but I think that they probably get a little more hate than they deserve.
For starters we have to recognize that the COI does not write the rules. We also have to recognize that their job is a difficult one and they probably don't have the man-power or jurisdiction that they need to really do it perfectly. You can go back quite a ways and find that there have been no great affronts to the Alabama nation from the NCAA -- when all was said and done, the punishments we've gotten have been reasonably proportionate to the wrongs committed.
With that in mind, it's worth taking a look at the Michigan scandal.
First, understand that of the five infractions, some of them do seem minor. And if you're looking to make excuses (ahem, Dr. Saturday), they should be easy to come by. In a world as opaque as Division I college football, it will always be easy to suggest that everyone else is guilty, too. You could also blame the busy-body reporter that found the violations. None of those courses of action validate Michigan's behavior, though, they just serve as distractions.
So what'd UMich (allegedly) do? Here's a brief summary:
- They required players to participate in as many as five hours of football activities per day. The limit is four hours. "Psh, one hour a day? Big freakin deal.", right? Not so fast. If those are your hours, you probably care. You probably also care if Michigan is an opponent. For every 100 hours of daily workouts you get, Michigan was getting as much as 125.
- A graduate assistant lied to the NCAA during the course of their investigation.
- Michigan hired coaches, called them something else and then had them do things that coaches weren't allowed to do, like supervise "optional" workouts.
- Most damningly, they let all of this happen and weren't really paying attention to it or keeping their paperwork in order.
As infractions go, this isn't buying recruits or letting players live in mansions for free, granted. But it is a serious case of "where there's smoke, there's probably fire." Yes, sure, these are "technicalities" but remember what technicalities are: they're rules.
Even aside from the competitive advantage that sneaking practice hours gets you (in Michigan's case, I guess the answer to that appears to be "very little") we have to recognize that being a student athlete, especially in the modern era of graduation rate requirements, is a difficult job, and allowing coaches to take hours here and there just makes it worse.
If the NCAA's mission is to protect the student athlete, this is one of the most legitimate infractions cases they've pursued in quite some time because, in a very real sense, they're protecting athletes (at Michigan and everywhere else) from "practice creep" where the 4 hour-a-day limit morphs into four-and-a-half, and then into five, and the only option the athlete has is to just grin and bear it because you know there's some hot-shot freshman who's just dying to get on the field.
The bottom line is that the rules are the rules, and if the limit is four hours a day, a coach with competence and integrity would ensure that his workouts didn't exceed that limit. It'll be interesting to see how this and the USC cases play out.
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WOW
I didn’t realize they did all of that. Man… Once again thank you Paul Fienbauhm for calling rich rod’s wife a hooker, cause look where we would be or could be.
"I like my Johnnie Walker red and my women bolnde."
- Joe Namath
The most important thing to remember about all this...
…is that it does nothing but expose Brian Cook’s hypocrisy even further. When Nick Saban manages to skirt NCAA rules by placing players on medical scholarship, effectively cutting them from the team yet still finding a way to let them finish their degree on the school’s dime, he froths with indignant rage that Saban is so evil as to break the spirit of the laws if not the letter, but when RichRod flat out breaks the rules he’s busy finding every conceivable excuse from “well, does stretching count against practice time? It’s a grey area at best…” to “wah, the reporters are out to get us.” Honestly, if it weren’t for his bullshit, I don’t think any of us would be blinking twice over this other than to say “thank God we got Saban.”
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And I'll add...
….that even if this is all ticky tacky rules violations, it still represents a competitive advantage for Michigan (its not the NCAAs fault they couldn’t take advantage of it…) in extra practice time and extra coaching.
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I don’t think putting players on Medical Redshirt so that they can finish their degree even though they can’t compete any more is “skirting the rules”. I’m pretty sure that’s what the medical redshirt is FOR.
I'm wrong all the time.
Yes.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Feb 24, 2010 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
I agree...
…that several of the players really needed to be on medical scholarship (Knight and Hoke come to mind), but there were a few that weren’t going to see playing time that suddenly had “back problems” no one had ever heard about (Lionel Mitchell, for example). Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Saban did anything wrong with the way he handled his roster, and that (at least in my mind) was the biggest bone of contention between Cook and everyone else that wasn’t busy trying to shield his unexpectedly scandalous new coach by attacking an already hated and easy target in Nick Saban. He might think that putting players with limited value to the team (i.e. not expected to contribute in any meaningful way) on medical scholarship even though their medical issues were probably not really severe enough to actually end their playing careers to free up room on the roster is “evil” because it games the system, but its not against the rules and, when put to the common sense test, is a hell of a lot better than taking them aside and saying “son, we need the room and you ain’t playing next year anyway, so you can either transfer or start applying for student loans.” That’s why all of this just reeks of hypocrisy, that “gaming the system” to allow players to at least finish their degrees even though they are being effectively cut from the team makes Nick Saban “evil” while RichRod’s straight up breaking the rules and basically having so little regard for them that they didn’t even bother to make sure they were following them is ok because they only wound up breaking the rules a little bit.
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Just because...
…you never heard about Lionel Mitchell’s back problems doesn’t mean they were fabricated, or too minor to effectively end his playing career. Not only is it wise for a coach to limit information about injuries for strategic purposes, but quite often he is dealing with privacy issues that limit what he can say. The bottom line is that there is no evidence that Coach Saban ‘games the system’ in such a manner, even if it isn’t against the rules…but maybe you’re just throwing a dog a bone….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 24, 2010 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously people, same side here...
My bad if Lionel Mitchell isn’t the guy I was thinking of, but the point remains that the numbers worked according to some plan on Saban & staff’s part, not because they sat around in meetings thinking “fourth string DB X isn’t going to get any playing time next year, cross your fingers his shoulder gives out on him.” They aren’t that stupid to base their football program on blind luck and just really really hoping things work out.
Roll Bama Roll - The Champagne of Bama Blogs.
And to go even a little further...
…why does everyone insist that “Saban didn’t game the system” as if to admit Saban managed to work within the framework of the NCAA’s rules to make his roster numbers work is a bad thing. Its NOT, he didn’t break any rules and he managed to work the numbers in such a way that it resulted in a net good for all involved (i.e. all the new recruits that were eligible got in, guys who would have just been outright cut at other schools were put on medical scholarship and allowed to finish their degrees for free, and we even had enough room to put Leigh Tiffin and Fitzgerald on scholarship). “Gaming the system”, which Saban did (and continues to do with “hiring” former coaches as GAs, or when he started using webcams to visit with recruits when he wasn’t allowed to actually visit them) is not a bad thing. Breaking the rules is a bad thing, which is what RichRod has done, and worse, the rules were broken because he was either a) too stupid to know what the rules were or b) so indifferent to the rules that he didn’t bother setting up a system that made sure they were being followed. That’s the difference here; Saban knows the rules and has every last particle of his football program set up to make sure they aren’t broken and has a plan to get everything he wants done within the framework of those rules, even if it violates the “spirit” of said rules.
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“Gaming the system” implies that he is using unintended consequences of the rules — or using the letter of them to violate the spirit of them — to do things that otherwise shouldn’t be done.
Simply put, putting guys on medical scholarship who, through some medical event, are no longer competitive players is not “gaming the system” any moreso than you are “gaming the system” when you go pump gas into your car and then walk into the store and pay for it. That’s how it’s supposed to work.
Gaming the system implies, as Cook insinuated, that this isn’t against the rules, but it should be.
In fact, all of the evidence we have shows that there was no “gaming” going on at all.
I'm wrong all the time.
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one...
I understand what medical scholarships are for, but where we’re butting heads is on whether or not the players that were put on medical scholarship were no longer competitive players because of their medical issues, or if they just weren’t going to see playing time and their medical issues gave us a reason to put them on medical scholarship.
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Many players
play hurt to some degree or another. And in truth sometimes the reason a guy is no longer able to see the field is because he is just not as good as he was when he signed because he is banged up.
Saban is a master of sizing up a situation. He might say, “Old Joe over here is just not fast enough to play I’ll bet it is because he hurt his back in spring practice. Rather than kick him out of school, I’ll put him on medical redshirt, and that will open up a spot for someone else.”
Those players who think Saban is wrong are free to transfer and try to play somewhere else- such as Zeke Knight.
Players that are not hurt in anyway, but are just not good enough are not cut but encouraged to transfer to gain playing time. Most of them do transfer. That is not being mean, that is actually helping a guy out.
But players who are trouble makers, break rules etc. are rightly kicked off the team.
I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.
Well said.
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 25, 2010 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
Yes...
…that is exactly where we disagree.
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 25, 2010 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
perhaps im just crazy..
I just don’t see it has a bad thing IF ( and thats a big if cause no one really knows) Saban put someone on a medical scholly, who wasn’t really hurt so bad that he couldn’t actually play, and this allowed that player to finish school on the Universities dime…giving said player a TON of opportunity to better himself….
To me it sounds pretty damn smart to bend the system in favor of a kid…If Saban did this…it actually makes me think better of him….he could have just thrown the kid on the streets and said," go try some place else…loser"…
But again…i could be crazy. And i also don’t hold anything past Saban. If he finds a loophole that doesn’t lead to a NCAA investigation and also benefits a player..Im 100% sure he’d take it.
Lane Kiffin took the meaning of "Volunteer" WAY too seriously....
Totally agree.
Saban is actually helping these kids. It is not like they were going to to the NFL.
And atheltic scholarships do have to be renewed every year so he he could have dropped them or run them off.
I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.
I’m not really sure how you could be determining the causes here. The kids aren’t competitive. They have medical issues. Why you assume that the former has nothing to do with the latter, I don’t know.
Yes, it’s possible that they STILL wouldn’t be competitive even without the medical issues, but that’s hardly the question that’s being asked. It would be almost impossible for a medical issue to have no impact on their on-the-field performance. You are probably neglecting the other option such players have: Transfer.
When you’re talking about one team, it is easy for a medical issue to have no impact as to whether or not a player sees playing time. But when you’re talking about 118 teams, that injury is going to be the deal-breaker at any number of them on the margin, potentially keeping that player from seeing playing time at the other school he’d like to play at.
The only way I can see this being “gaming” the system is if there’s evidence somewhere that a player with NO MEDICAL ISSUE was put on medical scholarship to clear up room. THAT’S gaming the system. It’s also probably a violation of NCAA rules, although I’d have to look that up to be sure.
I'm wrong all the time.
I see what you did there
I like how you worked in a subtle slight against USCe.
any moreso than you are "gaming the system" when you go pump gas into your car and then walk into the store and pay for it. That’s how it’s supposed to work.
LM missed spring practice that year dealing with the back issues before leaving the team.
Mitchell was with the Tide for spring practice but was not healthy enough to participate. He played in 27 games during three seasons — starting 10 — while compiling five interceptions and 60 tackles.
And apparently...
..Mitchell wasn’t the player I was thinking of that went on medical scholly out of the blue, so my bad.
Roll Bama Roll - The Champagne of Bama Blogs.
Yep
That ass-hat Cook is the only reason most of us care about this at all. His Holier than Thou posturing was infuriating, and blatant in it’s “Look over there, not at the dirt over here” agenda.
I'm in no condition to drive...wait! I shouldn't listen to myself, I'm drunk.
by That Other Dave on Feb 24, 2010 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
wasn't sure who this Brian Cook was
ran a search of this site and found quite a bit of fun. This must be satisfyingly karmic for many of you, esp Todd and Pete
"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim
"This is not the end. This is the beginning." - The Great and Powerful Saban
by Thomas Walker Esq on Feb 24, 2010 2:54 PM CST up reply actions
There really needs to be
a Cook tutorial for new members to this site.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Feb 24, 2010 9:25 PM CST up reply actions
Brian Cook is a douchebag
Chapter 1 – Brian Cook, three years later, is still a douchebag.
You play fast, you play strong, you go out there and dominate the guy you play against, and make his ass quit! That's our trademark, that's our MO as a team, aight, that's what people know us as! - Nick Saban, 2008
by BamaReturns07 on Feb 24, 2010 9:59 PM CST up reply actions
So suspenseful...
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 24, 2010 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
Wait for Chapter 2 - Brian cook is still a douchebag
It’s riveting.
You play fast, you play strong, you go out there and dominate the guy you play against, and make his ass quit! That's our trademark, that's our MO as a team, aight, that's what people know us as! - Nick Saban, 2008
by BamaReturns07 on Feb 25, 2010 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
They required players to participate in as many as five hours of football activities per day. The limit is four hours.
The funny thing is they don’t count the extra hours. We’d lift weights for at least 90 minutes in the morning before we went to class. Then we’d arrive at 1 p.m. for meetings and practice would start about 4 p.m. and end around 6:30. We were there from 1 – 7 and then the scholarship guys had tutoring. Technically, football activities occupied at least eight or nine hours a day. But I guess they only count practices and workouts, not meetings and walk-throughs even if they’re team-related.
www.totteringworld.com
also treatments after practice....
definitely a full time job…this is why players should be paid. But I guess that is another argument for another day….etc..etc… Let the hate begin….
They are paid
they don’t have student loans like many of us. Get tens of thousands of dollars worth of free tuition.
Although I will say I think they should have a stipend so they can take their girls out, go out on the weekends, etc.
You play fast, you play strong, you go out there and dominate the guy you play against, and make his ass quit! That's our trademark, that's our MO as a team, aight, that's what people know us as! - Nick Saban, 2008
by BamaReturns07 on Feb 24, 2010 10:00 PM CST up reply actions
You gotta pay for the honeys...
…wait, that sounds wrong….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 24, 2010 10:30 PM CST up reply actions
Scholarships = free tuition
unless I missed something.
You’re more than welcome! Although I’m not sure what brought about the snideness in your comment…
You play fast, you play strong, you go out there and dominate the guy you play against, and make his ass quit! That's our trademark, that's our MO as a team, aight, that's what people know us as! - Nick Saban, 2008
by BamaReturns07 on Feb 25, 2010 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
I think because you were stating the obvious...
…I know all there is to know about scholarships…I had one. I lived for free in Burke Hall and Byrd Hall..I ate Bama Dining on a meal card…all paid…I completely understand. On top of the obvious…I still think players should be compensated. I was literally broke in school and I rode a bike. There is no time to get a job as a student athlete. Looking back on it now…I had the world then…but , as a 18 yr old, I felt broke all the time. I think some pay in addition to a free tuition could be good. $50 a week would suffice. I know this opens up a whole new can of worms and many non athletic scholarship students will fight tooth n nail against this….but its not all roses for someone that plays college sports….just no time for anything. This is why I wrote…“let the hate begin”… Of course I also understand that paying athletes will open up all new problems with regulations, rules, check n balances, etc. centered around potential pay.
I would have no problem
with giving kids on scholarship some spending money. They really don’t have time to work. Many of these kids come from real poor backgrounds. It is tough being a college kid and not having any money in your pocket.
And it could actually help keep some of these kids away from the bad influence of agents and even drug dealers.
I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.
with all that being said...
…I do apologize if I came off sounding snide. I didnt mean to sound that way…just joking for the most part in that statement.
This sounds like it could almost be an issue with the federal tuition/costs numbers.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t scholarship athletes get the full cost of attendance covered? See footnote 7 on this page for example, federal financial aid includes a portion for “personal expenses” and I was under the impression that athletes received this as well. Granted, it is not very much money at all, but if this is true, I don’t think it would be difficult for the NCAA to just allow schools to pay a bit more than they are now.
…and if they’re not allowing this now, they very easily could.
I'm wrong all the time.
Yeah
There is a very, very specific definition of “football activities”, which probably does not extend to all of the things that most of us would consider in that category.
I’d also note that it definitely only includes required and not optional (or “optional”) events.
I'm wrong all the time.
Extra practice time
I think the NCAA should not sanction them at all, haven’t the last two seasons been enough punishment for anyone? By their onfield performance it is obvious they had NO competitive advantage from their violations. The last two seasons, plus having to look at rich rods “wife” should be enough punishment for a lifetime, maybe the last one bordering on" cruel and unusual" Thank God they didn’t get on the Bama jet, or this train wreck would be ours.
No competitive advantage...
…so far. But what about the kids who got 25% more coaching when they were freshmen and sophomores. Yeah, you might nto see it in the second season, but by their senior year they could be appreciably better because of it.
I'm wrong all the time.
Or burned out and ready to light one up....
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 24, 2010 10:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
just cause it didn't help
them doesn’t mean it wasn’t wrong…Lets say that Means turns out to be a complete bust and never starts a down for Bama…does that make it alright that he got paid to come here? Nope…
Lane Kiffin took the meaning of "Volunteer" WAY too seriously....
I thought it was just his coach who got paid....
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 24, 2010 10:32 PM CST up reply actions
I'm willing to bet that most teams/coaches
violate these rules, but Michigan is being investigated because players spoke out. I’ve heard that Rodriguez is an old-fashioned coach. At least with his mouth. He supposedly motherf’s guys. Since today’s kids can’t handle that as well, several of them probably decided to hurt him for something like this.
Honestly, I think it’s funny when coaches talk shit and most players laugh it off. Rodriguez must be a major league prick for an inverstigation like this to even get off the ground. The NCAA wouldn’t have any idea if those players hadn’t spoken out.
www.totteringworld.com
Major league prick?
Dick Rod?
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 24, 2010 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
I don' t think
Michigan actually appears before the NCAA for several months so they may self impose some penalties and try to get off. And, that may work if they fire RR which they should do anyway because he is a joke. In fact, this may be the perfect excuse for Michigan to get rid of him.
Personally, I’ve always liked Michigan over Ohio St. and found their fans to be much nicer too. (Cook is a jerk, but I don’t hold that against their fans.) But as long as RR is their coach I’m no fan of their program. So if he is staying I hope they get hammered.
I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.
self imposing does little...
sure it might reduce the punishment by some small degree but it won’t get them off…
Lane Kiffin took the meaning of "Volunteer" WAY too seriously....
I think if they
canned RR now it would help with the NCAA.
I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.
It would also help with the football....
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 24, 2010 10:34 PM CST up reply actions
That's what she said....
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 24, 2010 10:34 PM CST up reply actions
I don’t think Michigan actually appears before the NCAA for several months so they may self impose some penalties and try to get off
This is how pretty much every infraction ever goes if the school admits that the infractions took place. Investigate, admit you did something wrong, offer small punishment in hopes that that the NCAA doesn’t add much more, and cross your fingers.
The only time that doesn’t happen is when you’re denying it outright like USC has been.
That can really come back to screw you, though, if they find the infractions anyway, because then not only did you commit them, but you couldn’t find them when you were told they existed, making it far more likely that you’re going to get FTM or LOIC from the committee.
I'm wrong all the time.
Brian Cook
is a tool! But I do like Michigan. I doubt this will become anything serious…
That being said, I don’t think RR will be there next year. RR has not been able to recruit key players, and Michigan’s secondary has more holes in it than a Goth Chick.
Michigan is toilet bowl material now....
The fact this violation was brought to light by the players tells a story of mutiny and insubordination. Team chemistry is poor at best. Plus rich Rod benched (I think) two QB’s during gametime last year. There’s no telling what that did to team leadership.The players have had it with this guy and his antics. Michigan will have a 5-win season at best in 2010. Maybe 3.
He is great who can do what he wishes; he is wise who wishes to do what he can.
"A demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -H. L. Mencken
by Bens4vcobra on Feb 25, 2010 2:48 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Texas A&M...
…should have one of those with R.C. Slocum….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 25, 2010 6:34 PM CST up reply actions
Auburn will
want one with Tubbs one day too.
I hate the NCAA more than UT & AU combined. At least with UT & AU you got a fighting chance.
Would this do?
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 25, 2010 8:40 PM CST up reply actions
interesting way to consider this situation...
is to examine the disadvantage that UCLA has due to their tradition of players “going over the wall” and skipping a day of practice during spring training (or in preparing for a bowl game, as was the case last year).
the bottom line is that you lose a valuable day of practice you can’t get back. given the rigid constraints on the number of practices and their duration, that’s essentially giving every one of your opponents a competitive advantage. and, like the michigan situation, the “tradition” calls into question the authority of the coach.
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