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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

Nick Saban & Bear Bryant: A Comparison

One thing's for sure. Both coaches knew the importance of looking sharp.

Earlier this week we noted that the comparisons between Nick Saban and Paul W. Bryant have been relatively common this off-season. It's honestly not that surprising. Much the same chatter ensued after Gene Stallings' 1992 Alabama team won the National Championship in 1992.

But as Coach Saban and the Crimson Tide seem poised at making a very real run at the crystal football in 2010 we should probably expect this discussion to intensify rather than abate. And that's a level of scrutiny that Coach Saban is very much aware of.

"There are high expectations at Alabama and it's tough living in the shadow of Bear Bryant," he admitted earlier this year at the Coach of the Year Clinic in Las Vegas, NV.

From a numbers point-of-view it's not even close. Coach Bryant’s all-time total of 323 victories has since been exceeded among Div. 1-A coaches by both Bobby Bowden and Joe Paterno but it still remains a massive achievement. His 323-85-17 record gives him a career win percentage of .780 -- a staggering number given the amount of games involved.

But it is the sheer number of titles Coach Bryant accrued that remain the Mt. Everest for college football coaching: six national championships, 14 Southeast Conference championships and one Southwest Conference championship.

In comparison with all that, there’s little chance Coach Saban can ever catch up despite his own formidable resume.

Currently, Coach Saban boasts two BCS National Championships, three SEC Championships and five SEC West Division Championships.  In 14 years as a head coach he has rolled up a 124-50-1 record that (minus five games in 2007 vacated by the NCAA) has earned him a .703 winning percentage. At 58 years of age,  it's highly doubtful he'll be in the business long enough to make a serious stab at Coach Bryant's tally.

Yet, simply looking at the two coaches' records obscures the issue rather than clarifying it. The fact is there exists a wealth of similarities between Coach Saban and Coach Bryant that most Alabama fans recognize instinctively if not consciously. In terms of coaching philosophy, these two men were not that far apart and that's what we're going to take a look at in some detail today. So follow along after the jump.

Star-divide

During the intro video shown at Bryant-Denny Stadium (as it shows Kenny Stabler's "Run in the Mud") you hear the recognizable growl of Coach Bryan intoning one of his most famous maxims: "The same things win that always won... and we just have a different bunch of excuses if we lose." In this respect, the similarities between Coach Bryant's approach to the game and Coach Saban's aren't too difficult to perceive.

Neither Coach Bryant and Coach Saban invented anything new to build their national championship teams. The emphasis on preparation and hard work they both espouse are the hallmarks of any successful football team. The difference in their approach and other programs seems to be in the intensity, consistency and commitment. Things they they not only brought with them to Alabama, but subsequently required of both the coaching staff and the players.

With this in mind, the similarities between the two coaches in term of their means of achieving their ends become startlingly obvious -- once you start looking for them, of course. For the purpose of this article we'll only look at three: the importance of organization, conditioning and hiring quality assistants and staff.

Organization

In his 2004 book, How Good Do You Want to Be? Coach Saban -- then the head coach at LSU --  laid out his outline for creating a successful college football program. Organization, he insists, is a necessary condition for success with any large group and to achieve that a systematic approach is required.

"A systematic program includes organizing defense, offense, special teams, and recruiting. We [LSU] have a systems for the off-season. These systems are reevaluated every year; we have to be flexible enough to make the systems better, using a quality control system that is effective in evaluating strengths and weaknesses."

It's a philosophy he brought with him to Tuscaloosa in 2007 and it is eerily similar to the assessment of the system Coach Bryant put in place at Alabama when he arrived in 1958.

"[Coach Bryant] demanded of himself a definite plan for success, dedication and tough-mindedness that permitted 'decisions that were unpleasant'… The planning extended to every aspect of the program – administration, testing and selection of players, the teaching of fundamental football techniques, offensive and defensive techniques, scouting and game preparation, game administration and halftime adjustments."

For both coaches, the emphasis on organization and working efficiently is most apparent on the practice field. In his biography of Coach Bryant, Coach, Keith Dunnavant describes the practices at Alabama as "an intricately organized flurry of hitting and instruction" where every aspect of the proceedings was planed in advance.

This was a sharp contrast to the approach of his woeful predecessor JB "Ears" Whitworth where there was no formal schedule whatsoever. Practices could last hours on end or be cut short early depending on the mood of the coach. During practices it wasn’t uncommon for whole groups of players would be standing around waiting while others were doing drills or scrimmaging.

That all changed with the arrival of Coach Bryant, according to the author Tom Stoddard whose book Turnaround chronicles the coach's first year at Alabama.

"In meetings before and after practice, Bryant would thoroughly discuss plans and techniques with the assistant coaches and go over details until he was certain his way was understood. Once on the field, the teaching method was to describe the technique, demonstrate the technique, and then ask the player to perform it in one-on-one sessions."

This approach is almost identical to what Coach Saban espouses in How Good Do You Want to Be? in terms using preparation and organization to maximize efficiency.

"Some players – or teams – spend two hour in the afternoon doing drills, rehearsing plays, and going through the motions of practice. But others invest their two hours by working hard, correcting mistakes, and investing time can impact results dramatically."

And both coaches strongly emphasize the details of technique at the expense of general scrimmage.  Every aspect of the player's performance has been dissected to it's atomic elements and every drill of every practice is designed to rebuild those aspects correctly. And then they are done over and over until they become second nature.

For the sake of comparison it's interesting to see how close Stoddard's description of practices under Coach Bryant in 1958 are echoed in the comments of Alabama’s current Defensive Coordinator Kirby Smart at the Coach of the Year Clinic last February.

"Practices [in 1958] were divided into five, six or seven segments of 15 or 20 minutes… At the end of each period, the managers blew a whistle and called out the assignments. Players and coaches were expected to sprint to the next station and the next drill." – Tom Soddard, Turnaround
"When we go to the practice field, we do not want to spend time explaining the drills… We want to repeat the drills and not have to teach daily… We do not waste time doing different drills or creating new drills. We want the repetitions for the individuals and we want to make the most of the time we have." -- Kirby Smart, The 2010 Coach of the Year Football Clinics Football Manual

Conditioning

Coach Bryant once insisted that a successful football team had to be "willing to out-condition your opponents." And he didn't waste any time making sure that the Crimson Tide was going to be in better shape than anybody it would face across a football field.

Cochran_medium
Coach Cochran hard at work.

In January 1958, just days after meeting their new coach for the first time, the Alabama players began a new conditioning program. The coaching staff had transformed the third floor gymnasium of Friedman Hall into a workout area with weights, floor mats and a chain for the door.

The sessions were voluntary but only in the sense that they were not, Stoddard wrote in Turnaround. If any player wanted to stay on the team they went up the stairs at your appointed time and the doors were locked behind them.

What ensued was a non-stop hour-long ordeal of intense physical drills and weightlifting that quickly became dreaded among the players. The sides of the room were eventually lined with buckets so the players to vomit into them and immediately resume the workouts. Players sometimes crawled out of the building.

The ordeal wasn’t simply to weed out the weak; the workouts were designed with the intention of "heightening physical condition, improving quickness and building endurance" as Stoddard explains it. Coach Bryant ran punishing practices but he made sure his players were physically prepared to handle them.

Jump forward to 2007 when, upon arriving in Tuscaloosa, one of the first things Coach Saban did was create the 4th Quarter Program based the conditioning regimen developed in 1983 by his assistant at Michigan State Carl "Buck" Nystrom. The spring program consists of runs twice a week for endurance and speed, twice a week agility work, and three-times-a-week weightlifting sessions. The goal is much the same as Coach Bryant’s a half-century before.

"You have to be in great physical condition. We loaf when we get tired. We make mental errors when we get tired and we will not be able to execute. When you are tired you do not play with the same kind of toughness. We must be a well-conditioned team… the teams we played this year could not match our intensity for 60 minutes."

When Coach Bryant introduced his conditioning program at Alabama in 1958 it was an oddity in the conference. Today, it's a necessity. Coach Saban demonstrated his commitment to it by hiring Scott Cochran who had worked with him at LSU. Cochran's intense demeanor has made him a Crimson Tide fan favorite but the success of the program has made him one of the highest paid conditioning coaches in college football. And that success isn't difficult to measure.

The initial payoffs tend to be in terms of team unity and player focus, something that is light-years better today than even in Coach Saban's first season. The longer term advantage is being able to flat out outlast opponents in games. Compare these two comments by Alabama players from the two eras:

"You’d just sit there and laugh at [your opponents]. Really, you just felt so good, you were dancing around over there, these old boys sucking wind, and we’d say, ‘Oh, boy, we’ve got you now.’ That was one of the best feelings in the world." -- Gary O’Steen, Crimson Tide Halfback,  1957 - 1960
"You stay bought into [the conditioning program] when you see your opponent sucking air and physically failing and you're still fit and ready and you know you own his ass. You know Coach Cochran was right all along and you don't ever want to be that man." -- Crimson Tide Linebacker Cory Reamer, 2005 - 2009

Assistants & Staff

Coach Bryant's impact to the game is felt even today due to the number of assistant coaches that served under him who went on to success leading their own programs. Of the 54 assistants that served on Coach Bryant at the Capstone, no less than a third went onto head coaching jobs elsewhere.

(Although it should also be mentioned that Coach Bryant maintained a 43-6 record against his former coaches and players. As LSU head coach Charlie McClendon who played under Coach Bryant at Kentucky once opined: "He taught us everything we know, but not everything he knew.")

This trend was not simply due to Coach Bryant's own tutelage but to the men he chose to work under him throughout his career. He insisted a successful staff must be comprised of "dedicated men who must believe in the head coach and his plan," but he wanted assistants with intelligence, not ‘yes men.’

"I don't hire anybody not brighter than I am," he said."If they're not smarter than me, I don't need them."

Assistants_medium
Coach Bryant confers with his assistants.

This wasn’t simply a case of Coach Bryant's notorious poor-mouthing, as Allen Barra explained in The Last Coach. "Every man was chosen carefully for his loyalty and dedication as well as his knowledge over specific areas of football," he wrote. And the man wasn't timid about surrounding himself with good people. At one point Alabama boasted a staff of 18 coaches, by far the largest in the conference.

Coach Saban’s approach to his staff is almost exactly the same. "Hire good people," he wrote. "It’s that simple."

In the past three-and-a-half years Alabama has become a hotbed of assistant coaching talent as evidence by the increasing pressure from other programs to hire them. The response by the university has been to increase their pay accordingly which, unsurprisingly, Coach Saban supports strongly: "Our guys do a great job, and they should be compensated for it," he said earlier this year.

What is interesting about Coach Saban’s hiring philosophy is how it seems to eschew the rush to grab the hottest name out there. When Major Applewhite left after a season as Offensive Coordinator under Coach Saban the man chosen to replace him was a little known WAC school assistant. While Jim McElwain was shocked to be contacted about the position at the time, he’s now a hot commodity among coaching circles.

"The bottom line is that any good leader should have a strong supporting staff who are not clones but add something to the organization," Coach Saban explains in his book. And while Coach Saban’s coaching tree has a long way to go in order to ever reach the extent of Coach Bryant’s, it’s already become clear it’s growing in the same manner.

It also deserves mention that both Coach Bryant and Coach Saban put a premium on their assistant's ability to recruit. They both keenly understood that the lifeblood of any college football program is keeping on-the-field talent coming in and the key to doing that was with good assistants.

Almost as soon as Coach Bryant arrived, he brought the coach of Huntsville High School, Clem Gryska on board. "He figured I had an open door to every high school in the state," Gryska recalled. And he was right.

Similarly, Coach Saban moved quickly upon arriving at Tuscaloosa to nail down the pipelines for in-state talent first. One of his earliest hires was Hoover High School assistant coach, Jeremy Pruitt, and within two months he brought head football coach at Benjamin Russell High School in Alexander City, Willie Carl Martin, on board as well.

The success of Coach Saban's staff in this respect has been evident in Alabama's recruiting classes ranking among the best, if not the best, in the country every year. Coach Bryant's success is apparent by his record.

These comparisons are by no means exhaustive. The two coaches' had extremely similar ideas concerning accountability,teamwork and the importance of fundamentals in all aspects of their respective programs just to name a few. Yet it's also very important to note one critical difference in the approach of the two coaches -- their specific focus.

Coach Bryant's emphasis was always on winning and paying the price that doing that entailed. "If you are not here to win a National Championship, you're in the wrong place," he told his team during their first meeting in 1958. Coach Saban, by contrast, has gone out of his way to tell his players the exact opposite.

"Every time you think of winning the national championship -- stop. Instead, think of what you have to do to dominate your opponent for sixty minutes," he wrote in his book.

The difference in philosophy is rather distinct but in practice they prove to be quite similar since both men prioritized the means over the ends knowing one eventually would lead to the other.

Coach Bryant pushed his players to focus on the goal but with the commitment to pay the price necessary to achieve it. "It's not the will to win that matters," he explained, "Everyone has that. It's having the will to prepare to win." Giving less than 110% even in practice was an unforgivable offense since it suggested a lack of conviction in the goal of winning.

Coach Saban, by contrast, urges players to have long term goals and to pursue them relentlessly but to do so by focusing on doing the task at hand the best of their ability. In a game situation this means dominating the opponent on every play is a faster way to victory than focusing on the scoreboard. "You have to play every play of the game as if it has a history or life of its own," he says.

Achieving that with consistency will eventually make the more distant goal -- such as winning national championships -- possible.

Part of the difference was a difference in perception toward losing and failure. For Coach Bryant, losing was a personal affront and a transgression that was not to be tolerated. Failure was never an option. For Coach Saban, failure is a necessary part of the process and critical for eventual success.

"When you play poorly and still win, that's the kiss of death," he wrote. "You have a lot of improving to do but not the right frame of mind with which to accomplish it."

Yet, despite this disjunct in approach both men put the highest premium on players that had the pride and perseverance to overcome defeat and continue their quest for excellence. Both understood they were only as good as the players on the field and were smart enough to focus the whole of their energy making those players reach the limits of their potential. That's a recipe for gridiron success as old as the game itself.

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Great article!

Very nice, thanks! ROLL TIDE!!!!!

by nashvillebama on Aug 3, 2010 8:19 AM CDT reply actions  

i honestly avoided this aspect of the comparison

due to your piece and ots’ superb analysis of the change in terms of the university administration that allowed coach saban to be hired in the first place.

when coach bryant was contacted about the alabama head coaching job he insisted his former mentor, hank crisp, give up not only his coaching duties but also stepping aside to let him take the athletic director’s job. the importance of having a direct line of contact with the university president was a lesson he had learned the hard way (as had the school under whitworth).

coach saban clearly has been given a similar situation with regard to president witt. the football program is his dominion and as long as he meets the standards set by the executive officer of the institution, he’s got free rein. the power battles and confusion within the athletic department and administration is one of the hallmarks of the wilderness years.

but these are meta-comparisons. they show the similarities in the point of view of the university and athletic department in hiring the two coaches, not comparisons of the particular approach of the two men themselves. so i deliberately avoided them in penning this piece (and i figured it had gotten long enough as it was).

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Aug 3, 2010 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Very good article, thanks.

Coach Bryant made his assistants better coaches while under his influence. When they left for another assistant job, they didn’t always do as well. Coach Mal Moore to ND or Coach Ken Donahue to tennessee are two prime examples.
It will be interesting to see how well Steele, Jimbo and Dooley do out from under the direct influence of Coach Saban.

by Bamabww on Aug 3, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

don't forget Grantham, Muschamp, Haywood, and Dantonio

"Yeah, it's Tennessee, that's the way it is sometimes." - Corey Zickefoose, Pulitzer Prize winner and robbery victim

"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." - Dean Martin

by Thomas Walker Esq on Aug 3, 2010 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ha!

Todd’s just folowing the Bear’s advice, and surrounding himself with good people.

Roll Tide!

by rolltidefromaz on Aug 3, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure if I should be insulted...

….by the (ha) or not, but for better or worse once the season starts you’ll be getting more out of me.

Roll Bama Roll - The Champagne of Bama Blogs.

by Todd on Aug 3, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

stop editing your comments.

it’s freaking me out.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Aug 3, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Roll Bama Roll - The Champagne of Bama Blogs.

by Todd on Aug 3, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was kidding. I look forward to your write ups this fall and to seeing you eat something nasty.

I wouldn't piss off the boys from Alabama . . . DBT

by I hate UT on Aug 4, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Alabama is old and busted, they say, while Southern Cal is the new hottness.

LMAO

by CarrotTop4 on Aug 3, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Excellent article

very well done! Assuming Saban stays here 10 more years, he’ll likely be regarded by anyone too young to remember Bryant as the best coach ever at Alabama. To guys like me, that will be a standard impossible to acheive, but I think Saban will come as close in my mind as possible.

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant

by NJBammer on Aug 3, 2010 9:14 AM CDT reply actions  

Only if Saban can win 4 more NCs.

I say 4, because 6 is the number to match, and since he already has one at LSU, that counts for one – they don’t all have to come at Alabama. I was born in ‘82, and so I don’t remember a down that Bryant coached, but until the numbers get relatively close, I’m going to have to rank Saban with the Frank Thomas’ and Wallace Wade’s of coaching – which ain’t half bad in itself.

"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy

(Formerly SugarBowl93)

by RememberTheRoseBowl on Aug 3, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

I hear ya brother!

"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy

(Formerly SugarBowl93)

by RememberTheRoseBowl on Aug 3, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great article.

Saban can not catch Bryant as far as records and I feel he will retire at or before 65.

Bryant actually pushed himself to break the all time win record and probably coached a few years beyond the time when he should have retired. In a way this pushing himself inspite of his bad health may have shortened his life—may have.

However, if Saban can win 2 more BCS titles I think he will go down as the greatest college coach of his era and will be considered in the same vein as Rockne, Wilkerson, and Bryant.

In spite of records, I don’t think people consider Bowden and Paterno as equal to Bryant or Rockne.

As much as I hate Auburn I hate Tenn. that much more.

by 5026 on Aug 3, 2010 9:43 AM CDT reply actions  

i'm kind of torn on this one...

bryant hit his second pinnacle at alabama with the 1978 & 79 championships, certainly. but he led the squad to a 10-win season in 1980 and a 9-win effort in 1981. a step back, yes, but a formidable achievement nonetheless. if you look at the rankings from these years, it’s clear the program was viewed as a force in the college football landscape.

my personal feeling is that with the 8-4 effort in 1982 he looked at what it would take to bring the team back to the level of a national championship-winning squad and knew he simply would not be able to do it again. he was 69 and his health had deteriorated noticeably over the previous years and nobody knew better what was required to build a team of that caliber.

so, no, i don’t think bryant coached a few years beyond his time. but i do believe he didn’t do nearly enough before stepping down to help the program transition beyond his tenure. the vacuum in the athletic department after his death was a key reason for the disarray in the program over the ensuing decade.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Aug 3, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

The reason I think Bryant

may have coached too long was because after 79 we still had the talent to win the NC but could not put it together for the entire season. Starting with the Rutgers game in 80, which we won, we looked at times tired. Then the wishbone only put up 3 pts. against MSU in loss and was shut out by ND in another loss (in 80). The wishbone had only been shut out once (UGA-76) in all the years we used it. It seemed some coaches were figuring it out but Bryant knew he was too old to change.

Then in 81 we lost to GT in huge upset, and we were tied by S.Miss. We did manage to share the SEC but looked bad against Texas in the Cotton Bowl. UGA running Walker in the power I was clearly the best team in the conference. Funny thing I think we might have been able to recruit Walker if we had gone to the I and a feature back. But, no way was he going to play in the Wishbone with half of the carries.

Of course 82 was very sad down the stretch losing 3 in row. By most coaches standards 80-82 at Bama, being 27-8-1 would be outstanding. But by Bryant’s standards it was sub par. This was a team that had only lost 11 games in 9 years of running the wishbone. Then to lose 8 games in 3 years clearly Coach Bryant was not at the top of his game.

As much as I hate Auburn I hate Tenn. that much more.

by 5026 on Aug 3, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

uh oh, I can hear the PSU folks firing up their interwebz…

by CarrotTop4 on Aug 3, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Let 'em..

..there was a time when the Bear and Jo Pa would take a Sunday or two and sip Jack Daniels and talk football…or, at least, that’s what I’ve read Joe Pa has said.

"...because you've got your mind right, and that's the way we like it." Nick Saban

by SRGBama on Aug 3, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

...and, again

Kleph, good stuff

"...because you've got your mind right, and that's the way we like it." Nick Saban

by SRGBama on Aug 3, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

And...

They both have questionable senses of style. Look at that picture. They both look like like they’re dressed for Halloween.

Roll Tide!

by rolltidefromaz on Aug 3, 2010 11:46 AM CDT reply actions  

besides...

coach bryant could wear what the hell he wanted any time he wanted. and coach saban certainly do the same on his birthday.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Aug 3, 2010 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great read.......

I was around for most of the Bryant years and I can say that we were all spoiled by winning expected nothing less than to win every time the Tide to the field because that is what Coach Bryant expected. I have been very reluctant to compare the 2 coaches because of the impact that comes with comparisons, as in the comment that Saban said in the beginning of this article, that is was tough being in the shadow of Coach Bryant at Alabama.
I bellieve that Coach Saban stands alone, as does Coach Bryant, because though they are quite similiar in so many ways, they coach in eras that aren’t even comparable. I was one of those at the end of Coach Bryant’s career believed that its was time for him to go because it looked as if the game had just suddenly past him by in just a couple short years. It was hard to feel that way, but in 82, we looked like a team that was losing its way. I did not want Perkins, but I did feel that we needed a change. Coach Bryant was a master at understanding people, and knew that the fans were becoming restless, and though he tried to do what he thought was best, it did lead us to a dark period of football, imo.
The press and information that comes out now makes coaching 100 times harder than just 30 years ago because there is so much more to deal with. I am a true fan of Coach Saban just as I was Coach Bryant, and I want to see him stay for as long as he wants to be here. I hope that we as fans give him as much love when Bama struggles, and we will have them, and that Coach Saban does share one other thing in common with Coach Bryant. That his love for the University of Alabama makes him resolve to stay even when the hounds come barking, be it from our yard or another.

I don't mind bad news, and I don't mind good news, but I can't stand surprises! Coach Nick Saban

by jtCRIMSON on Aug 3, 2010 12:21 PM CDT reply actions  

I just compared win/loss %

of Saban and Bryant. Up to this point, Saban has coached college football in 14 of the past 19 seasons, going back to 1990 (this according to Wikipedia, so take it for what it’s worth).

Bryant in his first 14 seasons: 96-43-9, for a .675 winning percentage. Zero National Championships.

Saban in his first 14 seasons: 124-50-1, for a .711 winning percentage. Two National Championships.

Granted, with the rules prohibiting ties now in effect, Bryant’s numbers would have changed a bit. Assuming Bryant wins all 9 ties, his winning percentage increases to .709, which is quite comparable to Saban, but that may be a stretch. Another major factor that I can see between them, though, is that Bryant took his first HC position at age 32, and Saban became HC at age 39, and then only coached for a year before leaving to go to the Browns where he was mentored by Belichick for 4 years before going to Michigan State. A final difference, as has been noted above is the one-platoon vs. two-platoon eras in football. This might not even be worthy of mention, just because a win is a win no matter what you have to do to get it, but the times, they were a-changin’ during the latter part of Bryant’s first 14 years, and even though CFB didn’t go full-fledge two-platoon until the mid-60s, the rules were constantly changing regarding substitutions, and that dramatically affected how any coach had to manage games. For Bryant to win during that period is much different than Saban coaching a game that has stayed relatively the same for his entire career (not that there weren’t any changes at all, but nothing that affected strategy of entire games quite like that).

All that said, though, had Saban not gotten such a late start as a HC, his numbers might very well have been Bryant like if he coached as long as Coach Bryant did. Both men are/were program builders, and to have the success they did in coaching at places like Kentucky, A&M, and Michigan State at the periods in which they coached at those schools, they have both proven to be made very much of the same mold ability-wise.

(This is my first attempt at crunching numbers, so some of you more experienced number crunchers can tear this apart if you like!)

"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy

(Formerly SugarBowl93)

by RememberTheRoseBowl on Aug 3, 2010 12:34 PM CDT reply actions  

for all the numbers in this article...

i relied on College Football Data Warehouse (which, i believe, is cited by the Wikpedia pages as well)

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Aug 3, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good point.

Saban has done more in the 1st 14 than Bryant. However, I think the schools Bryant had to work with Maryland, UK. A&M made it harder to win. In other words I think LSU & Bama make it easier to win, altough LSU was down when Saban came.

As much as I hate Auburn I hate Tenn. that much more.

by 5026 on Aug 3, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

altough LSU was down when Saban came

That’s kind of what I meant when I said “program builders.” Both took down teams and turned them around, so in that they’re fairly similar IMO. I’m not sure that the edge necessarily goes to Bryant in that category, though. You can’t really count Maryland, because Bryant only spent a year there, and that compares to Saban at Toledo. Michigan State is a pretty good comparison to Kentucky, given the time period when Saban coached there vs. back when it was a stronger school football wise. Both teams had stronger teams all around them sapping talent, and to recruit well you had to go out of state or settle for second best. LSU, admittedly, was much easier for Saban than A&M was for Bryant, but only because of the time period in which Saban was there. He was there in the Dubose/Franchione years at Bama, and the Zook years at Florida. He had pretty much his pick of the talent to go there at that point, and that made it much easier than it would have been in most years in SEC history.

All in all, they have very comparable records and schools, A&M being the lone exception in my mind. Time will tell, but if Saban keeps up the pace he’s set for himself at this point, if he hadn’t started so late (or if he has success into older age, which isn’t likely given JoePa’s and Bowden’s tries at it) he might well have been right up there with Bryant. We’ll just have to wait and see.

"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy

(Formerly SugarBowl93)

by RememberTheRoseBowl on Aug 3, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's the differences

From reading this fine article, their approaches seem so similar that it is the differences that I find most interesting, particularly the attitudes towards winning and “the process”.

The difference in philosophy is rather distinct but in practice they prove to be quite similar since both men prioritized the means over the ends knowing one eventually would lead to the other.

So it seems they really have similar attitudes towards both winning and the means to do so. The big difference is in the way they marketed those attitudes to recruits, players, fans, and administration. Whether it’s by design or not, I think Saban’s emphasis on process versus winning is more media friendly than Coach Bryant’s would be in this day and age.

by krnxprs on Aug 3, 2010 12:34 PM CDT reply actions  

Devil's advocate

I’m sure each of the above posters probably would argue that Bryant is the greatest college coach in history, and I would probably agree. Far be it from me to criticize, then, if Alabma fans wish to draw these parallels.

But I must ask, in earnest and without the slightest intention of trolling: Aren’t these similarities cited in this article common among most great football coaches or most successful people in general? Organization, meticulous attention to detail, hard-work and preparation, surrounding oneself with talented, loyal individuals… I imagine that if you dig through the (auto)biographies of every great coach those themes will shine through, particularly for those who have had success on the college level. The same probably goes for CEOs or anyone who has “built an empire.” You generally don’t accomplish great and difficult feats with sloppy preparation and a bunch of dunces for lieutenants.

My guess is that Bryant had some other qualities that truly make him a transcendent figure. Does Saban or any other current coach share in these or have some of his own?

by MattyIceUF on Aug 3, 2010 1:54 PM CDT reply actions  

i thought i addressed that...

but yes, i do think that these subjects should be similar among most successful coaches. what has struck me is how coach bryant and coach saban integrated them into their overall vision for the program, the emphasis they put on particular aspects and the striking similarity in how they went about implementing them.

the issue of practice is a good example. both coaches clearly emphasize the importance of maximizing the time available and, i expect, most good coaches do as well. what struck me was the similarity of how both coach bryant and coach saban went about achieving that.

you hear a lot about how tough things were for the players at The Junction but you have to dig pretty deep into jim dent’s book to see how hard coach bryant and his staff was working each day as well. the camp wasn’t just an exercise in brutality as many have declared it, there was a very clear plan in terms of preparing the team at work as well.

and so, when i picked up the manual from coach of the year clinic and read the entry by kirby smart cited above, the connection is almost impossible to miss.

but one thing i deliberately avoided discussing is the “transcendent figure” as you put it. coach bryant was a figurehead in alabama, the south and the nation as a whole for a vast number of reasons that had very little to do with his being a football coach. his importance as a cultural figure is something i highly doubt any modern college coach could ever rival. so, in this respect, arguing coach saban will ever match that is simply and exercise in futility.

bottom line, i think there are very real similarities between the two men’s approach to the game and it’s close enough that alabama fans relate to it in a very basic manner. winning a lot of games and national championships is part of it, but much less than you might expect. its the way coach saban goes about winning that matters.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Aug 3, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

If this is something y'all feel on a visceral level...

… as you mentioned, I can’t disagree with that. And good job on the piece, I enjoyed it.

I would still argue that the “intensity, consistency and commitment” exhibited at Alabama in the past and now present also exist in the majority of other successful programs. That may just be something we disagree on.

But is it really more than just the winning? What if Saban just went 14-0 and won a national title at Alabama while coaching like John Gagliardi — no tackling in practice, no mandatory conditioning, no playbook. Would you be equally as happy with his performance or would you wish he had been more like the Bear in his ways?

by MattyIceUF on Aug 3, 2010 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes, i believe so...

because we have been in a position where we won but were unable to sustain that over a significant period of time due to a battery of factors. coach saban’s method is one that is designed for the program to dominate over the long term — not just cash in the chips for one national championship. that’s the type of program we had under coach bryant and that’s what we strive for today.

and i don’t think it’s completely “visceral.” not every program that has a coach who touts "intensity, consistency and commitment" is successful as both coach bryant and coach saban have been. my effort here is to draw some specific similarities that might shed light as to why they have had such success.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Aug 3, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

and i should also point out...

the fact that coach bryant and coach saban have been spectacularly successful in their field is undeniable. this article is an effort to examine some of the reasons for that within pretty specific parameters. if you disagree with my conclusions that’s fine, but it’s also then your obligation to offer a more viable theory to back up your claim.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Aug 3, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Man I've got to learn this whole

Kleph thing where you are just so calm and just dissect somebody’s argument to little pieces and then destroy the pieces one by one……….

by p3bhambama on Aug 3, 2010 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

well, i hope i didn't do that...

i honestly want to hear what he has to say.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Aug 3, 2010 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not in this particular case

but you do have that ability…….and you don’t seem to come off like an ass when you argue a point unless you really are trying to rip a guy up…….

by p3bhambama on Aug 4, 2010 12:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just need to learn better

how to argue on teh internetz without coming off like a defensive asshole douchewagon…….

by p3bhambama on Aug 4, 2010 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

It is absolutely more than just the winning...

…like the man said:

Its the way coach saban goes about winning that matters.

Kleph, this post was awesome. Thank you.

by Queen of the Universe on Aug 3, 2010 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well as a point of comparison, Matty,

I don’t think anyone would compare Spurrier or Meyer to Bryant, despite the great success both have had. That’s not a slam on them, and I also don’t think it’s just because of them not being at Alabama.

by CarrotTop4 on Aug 3, 2010 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've...

…heard them both compared to Bryant, but just because they won. If you win, no matter how you do it, you’ll always be compared to Coach Bryant.

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Aug 3, 2010 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

No quit in them

Not sure if this is central, but it is one of the things that made me “feel” the comparison. The coach fields a team that is an extension of the coach’s personality. Stallings’ teams shared as well, though maybe not quite as strikingly.

I said many times to friends during the “wilderness” that I didn’t mind the losing so much as the team slacking or giving up. That is not Alabama Football. Alabama football is that the opponent may be good enough to win the game, but you can’t “beat” the team. They can’t be beaten, because they follow Bryant’s definition of a winner—and that means no matter how much they get knocked down, they never quit. Not that far from “The Process,” either.

by Steven Mitchell on Aug 3, 2010 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you're looking for an intangible element,

it might be the fact that neither man is/was ever satisfied, even with winning. What happens to a lot of coaches is they win, they reach the top, but then once they’ve achieved that, they begin not to work as hard as they did before. They pushed to be champions, and once they were, the thrill was gone, in a way.

With both Bryant and Saban, while winning championships is a goal, I’m not sure it was the ultimate goal for either of them. They both used football to mold players and teach them how to win at life by winning on the field. Looking at it from that perspective, once one championship was won, it was on to teach a new group of kids how to do the same thing all over again. For both of them that never got old, and because football was bigger than sport for both of them, they never slowed down or felt satisfied.

I’m sure that’s not the only thing, and it’s true that might be said about a lot of other coaches as well, but that is surely one thing that sets Bryant apart in my mind (and Saban too, for that matter).

"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy

(Formerly SugarBowl93)

by RememberTheRoseBowl on Aug 3, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Excellent observation, +1

by krnxprs on Aug 3, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Some trivial similarities...

…both men took the reins of the program coming off a losing season and immediately turned it into a winning program. Both took over when Auburn was in the midst of its then-best ever streak against the Tide, both lost in their inaugural year to extend that streak, and both rectified the situation in their second seasons. Both men won national titles (with undefeated seasons) in their first four years (CNS in his third).

Incidentally, Gene Stallings took over at Bama when Auburn had just set a new record streak against the Tide, but he put an end to it in his initial season as head coach. Like CNS, he won a national title in his third season at the helm.

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Aug 3, 2010 3:41 PM CDT reply actions  

Saban/Bryant in context makes sense

The main problem with comparing Saban and Bryant is that you’re comparing Saban’s body of work in progress against Bryant’s entire body of work. However, if you compare Saban in 2010 to Bryant in 1962, there’s something there. In both years, each man was coming off an undefeated title season led by defense and a QB who got shit done. Before the title season as a near-miss (1960, 2009) and prior to that growing pains (1958-59, 2007). Both coaches had a split national championship at an SEC school before Alabama, Bryant at Kentucky in 1950 (since recognized as co-champs with Oklahoma, whom they upset in the 1951 Sugar Bowl) and Saban at LSU in 2003 (also a Sugar Bowl win over OU). Both coaches also arrived in Tuscaloosa with 2 conference championships under their belt: Bryant in 1950 and 1956 (Kentucky 1, Texas A&M 2), Saban in 2001 and 2003 (both LSU).

I think there’s a general parallel between Bryant’s time at Kentucky and Saban’s time at Michigan State. In modern terms, both schools were basically Independence Bowl teams who had one great season for the coach. Bryant’s A&M teams were also similar to Saban’s LSU teams in that both quickly went from a second-tier conference opponent to legit conference title contender … just as they would at Bama. While LSU won the BCS championship in ‘03, most people don’t realize the Aggies were 17-0-1 during one stretch in 1956-57, an undefeated streak only interrupted by Mama calling (i.e. Hank Crisp). Even then, A&M lost its last 3 games by a combined 6 points: Rice 7-6, Texas 9-7, and Tennessee in the Gator Bowl 3-0.

Obviously, Saban winning another 5 titles is unlikely, but that’s another discussion. Looked at semi-objectively, the Saban career arc circa 2010 is awful close to the Bryant career arc circa 1962. Let’s just hope that this year, the Saturday Evening Post is a non-factor.

"That rug really tied the room together."

by pantsfucious on Aug 3, 2010 8:10 PM CDT reply actions  

furman bisher is still alive...

so don’t think it can’t happen.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Aug 3, 2010 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy.

by CarrotTop4 on Aug 3, 2010 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Really great post Kleph.....

I’ve said to my buddies since Coach Saban got here that he was very similar to Coach Bryant – I even said as much to my dad when he was hired at LSU…….but I have never been able to quantify it……..you have done so in this post, and done it well…….To me, the fact that Coach Saban has brought us back to winning championships is almost secondary; the thing that I am most grateful to him for is that he has brought us back to being Alabama……..to wit, he has reminded us that outworking and out preparing your enemy is the way to win……..that no amount of fancy, tricky plays can overcome your opponent if you aren’t in better shape than they are and that the team that wins is the one who executes the best play after play…….he truly is the best coach in the country – there are other great coaches – Meyer, Stoops, etc. but I wouldn’t trade Coach Saban for any two of the others……

by p3bhambama on Aug 3, 2010 8:40 PM CDT reply actions  

Slightly off topic...

…but I foresee CNS staying at the Capstone another seven or eight years as head coach, then ending his coaching career with 200+ victories, several conference titles, and four or five national championships (including the two he has now). At least that’s what my magic eight ball says….

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Aug 3, 2010 10:48 PM CDT reply actions  

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