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Crimson and White Roundtable: Week Three

ed.- A noticeable lack of quality links this morning means you get a Crimson and White Roundtable in lieu of the usual Jumbo Package. Let's face it, there are only so many articles you can read about David Cutcliffe's development of QBs and how Durham will be overrun with Alabama fans.

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As always, questions and participants can be found at the C&W Roundtable blog.

1. What is the most important thing we learned in the wake of the Penn State game?

That the offensive line hasn't skipped a beat from last year and may very well be an even better unit.  Yes, Chance Warmack broke a something like 18 year* streak of no holding calls on the offensive line, but consider that we went completely empty during the first scoring drive against a quality defensive line and still effectively imposed our will on them.  Last year's line was a monster when it came to run blocking but they struggled in pass protection from time to time, but so far this year we've seen the line still plowing the way like nothing has changed but also doing a better job of pass protection.  Some of that may be Greg McElroy's improvement from last year; he looks like he understands (or "feels") where pressure is coming from better and knows his protections well enough to move around in the pocket or get outside to avoid it.  Still, I can't say enough good things about the way the offensive line has performed thus far and their manhandling of the Penn State front seven was a welcome sight after so many years of struggles.

2. What is the biggest area of concern given the upcoming contest with Duke?

Has to be our pass defense.  We're looking at a team that wants to throw the ball on just about every down (over 40 passing attempts in both game so far, nearly doubling the rushing attempts), and we haven't really proven we can stop it yet.  Yes, we've gotten some timely interceptions and hopefully that trend will continue; if nothing else we've seen that Robert Lester is a ball hawk in the making and there were plenty of PBUs against Penn State as well, so even if we aren't tackling particularly well back there we are at least getting our hands on the ball more and more.  But break downs in coverage and bad tackling have given up some unfortunate "yards after catch" gains that we can't afford headed into the meat of the schedule.

3. How much will the return of Marcel Dareus and (possibly) Mark Ingram affect the team's strategy?

I don't know that either will necessarily alter the team's "strategy," but getting both back will be a welcome shot in the arm for the team.  In the case of Dareus, having our most physically dominant lineman back instantly improves the pass rush and our strength at the point of attack against the run.  We've seemed slow to get off the ball and we just aren't stonewalling teams like we were the last two seasons, but, again, we've been without our most physically dominant lineman so I'm going to reserve any really harsh judgments until after this weekend.

Getting Ingram back is a little different story, though, since we haven't exactly been struggling on the ground without him.  Trent Richardson is already averaging over 100 yards per game and 6.6 ypc, while the team is averaging 218.5 yards per game, good for 4th in the SEC.  Further, Richardson and Ingram have such a similar style of running that Ingram necessarily provides the offense with a different approach.  He does, however, bring three things to the table that we shouldn't ignore.

1) Experience.  Saban himself said Ingram was playing his best football yet before the surgery, a pretty serious statement considering Ingram was literally the entire offense for a large stretch of last season, catapulting him into the national spotlight and earning him the Heisman Trophy despite zero preseason buzz or an orchestrated media push by the university.  To paraphrase OTS, if Ingram wasn't playing his best football last season, then Mark Ingram must currently be operating on a higher plane of existence than the rest of us mere mortals.

2) Depth. I would happily wager that any other team in the SEC would trade their current backfield for the combination of Trent Richardson and Eddie Lacy (though Auburn wouldn't admit to it since they totally pwnd us in recruiting last year and OMG Cam Newton), so think about what Ingram's return does for our quality depth.  Not only do we have two backs that could carry the load individually, but we now have two feature backs and a more than serviceable #3, which brings me to...

3) Versatility. You can maybe file this under "the unknown" as well, but consider this: we've see enough new wrinkles so far (empty sets, more formations in the Wildcat, different personnel groupings, etc.) to expect more as the season wears on, but we also have no inkling of what part Mark Ingram will play in those wrinkles. With all the praise he's gotten for his smarts and ability, it should come as no surprised if we find out he has an even greater role in the offense once he gets back on the field.  We've all salivated over the prospect of Ingram and Richardson getting on the field at the same time, and even though Jim McElwain has expressly said he's not looking to add any two back sets just to do so, don't rule out a lot of experimentation via the Wildcat or lining one or the other up at WR from time to time. 

As I said, I don't necessarily believe Ingram's return necessarily changes our strategy; we're not going to reinvent the wheel now that we have a new tool in the toolbox and the tools we were already working with certainly allowed us to do pretty much whatever we wanted on offense anyway, which is impose our will on the defense and control the game.  But with Ingram?  Well, let's just say things get a little easier.

4. What part of the gameday experience are you most looking forward to on Saturday?

This week I'm looking for a nice, relaxing afternoon game.  The late kickoffs for the first two games made the waiting almost unbearable, but the 2:30 kickoff means I can get a little lunch and settle on the couch for the game without having to flip nervously between games while waiting on our beloved Tide to take the field.

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Will Dareus be "full metal jacket" as Saban said...or will it be a warm up game for

him as well, since this is his first game?

Bama's Pluck and Grit have Writ Her Name in Crimson Flame

by TideFanAtlanta on Sep 17, 2010 8:46 AM CDT reply actions  

Yeah...

…but it doesn’t matter how hard you go in practice, it never takes the place of game time.

by Nico2.0 on Sep 17, 2010 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

True

but do you think he might be chomping at the bit just a tad? He is ready to play. I am more concerned about the progress of Courtney Upshaw. We need him to be ready to play next week.

Roll Tide!

by mobilematt12 on Sep 17, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

He did but CU

is probably our second best pass rusher. While the depth of our team is great, we lose depth everytime one of our front line performers is nicked. Having CU and ES rotating is more effective than ES playing all the snaps.

Roll Tide!

by mobilematt12 on Sep 17, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Biggest of those three advantage to having Ingram back . . .

. . . is the depth. Our backs are a big part of the “Make his ass quit” formula, delivering huge blows to defenders. With that kind of pounding for a whole season, it’s great to split up the load.

by toofull on Sep 17, 2010 8:59 AM CDT reply actions  

who is better between TR and MI

is not really relevant to me. What makes the duo so formidable is the fact that neither one of them has to “carry the load.” The tandem will be a nightmare for opposing defenses. One of them gets a little winded after shredding the defense and making big plays and off the bench comes the other with fresh legs while the same tired defense stays out on the field. Anyone out there think we won’t be a dominate running team in the 4th quarter? Didn’t think so.

Roll Tide!

by mobilematt12 on Sep 17, 2010 9:09 AM CDT reply actions  

Well stated.

All 3 turbo tanks with fresh legs in the 4th qtr is a recipe for utter destruction. No defense will be able to stop Bama’s RBs in the final 12 minutes.

Muahahahahaha!!

U of U? Never...lol

by UtahBammer on Sep 17, 2010 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Speaking of GMac moving better in the pocket

I don’t remember which play it was, but I remember at some point vs PSU I saw a defender coming right for him and it didn’t look like he was in GMac’s line of sight at all. I remember me and everyone else around me kind of holding our breath at that moment. All the sudden he takes some really quick steps up so the defender just runs right past him, and gets the ball out of his hands.

"You know, we had a lot of fun tonight. But there's nothing funny about vapor lock! It's the third most common cause of cars stalling. So please, take care of your car and get it checked!" -Joe Namath

by billycthulhu on Sep 17, 2010 9:20 AM CDT reply actions  

He has looked really good in the pocket so far.

(knock on wood)

If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.

by CarrotTop4 on Sep 17, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

That bomb Greg completed to Maze against SJSU

was a perfect example of this. Pressure came off the edge, the RB picked it up, Greg stepped up in the pocket and made ’em pay, TD baby !!!

Hold my beer and watch this.

by silentboob on Sep 17, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Greg has looked good

The TD pass to Preston Dial in the back of the endzone was particularly impressive to me. It wasn’t very long, but it was the way he had to place it over the defenders.

ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!

by nashvillebama on Sep 17, 2010 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Touch" is a vital skill.

All the great QB’s had it.
GMac has it.

U of U? Never...lol

by UtahBammer on Sep 17, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

He does!

I feel really confident in Greg.

ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!

by nashvillebama on Sep 17, 2010 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Crossing routes!

McElroy hitting Norwood and Hanks? Maze? in stride on those 2 against PSU is something I’ve been waiting to see, rather than all these outs and curls to Julio. Remember the post-pattern type route Julio caught early against FL in 2008…? Have we run that with him since then…?

by Jeff Jones on Sep 17, 2010 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

my thought on that pass...

was how dramatically different it was from the one he connected with maze on in the Virginia Tech game.

both were great efforts but the VT pass was overthrown and instead of a touchdown, maze fell pretty much where he caught it. against PSU the pass was spot on, a bit in front of maze to keep it out of reach from the defender but not so far marquis had to alter his stride to catch it.

it was much the same with the preston dial TD reception. compare it to the td reception to colin peek in the SECCG and you see a quarterback who is much more dialed in to the rhythm of the offense and where his receivers are on the field.

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Sep 17, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm relieved for the 2:30 kick off

These past two weeks of waiting until 6 was driving me insane. I couldn’t sit still and enjoy the other games during the day. 2:30 will be great tomorrow.

by sixfoot7 on Sep 17, 2010 9:56 AM CDT reply actions  

Another bonus...

During the last two weeks, I had to make an effort not to begin drinking until 5 or so, so I wouldn’t be completely blitzed by kickoff. This was an effort to actualy remember the game the next day. Now, i can start drinking at noon! Hooray!

ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!

by nashvillebama on Sep 17, 2010 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

+1

I’ll still start off with breakfast bloody marys but I’ll probably end up remembering the 4th qtr of this game a little better. LOL

U of U? Never...lol

by UtahBammer on Sep 17, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

“We haven’t proven we can stop it yet”

The game isn’t scored in yards, its scored in points. We’ve been stopping the pass just fine.

I'm wrong all the time.

by PeteHoliday on Sep 17, 2010 10:09 AM CDT reply actions   3 recs

I agree.

We did stop Penn St from scoring. We caused an errant pass resulting in an int, and caused a fumble inside the red zone. The other int, I believe, was a badly underthrown ball. I do agree that we were able to stop them. However, I also tend to agree with Todd in that what concerns me is that they were able to drive into the red-zone in the first place. I hope that the trend of causing turnovers continues, but I would also like to see more stops before the opposition gets within striking distance.

ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!

by nashvillebama on Sep 17, 2010 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

For someone that loves to argue semantics so much...

…I would figure you would know the difference between “stopping the pass” and “stopping a drive.” Just because we stopped Penn Sate from scoring doesn’t mean we stopped them from moving the ball effectively through the air. Besides, if you make mistakes and have issues, it doesn’t matter that they weren’t taken advantage of by one team on a given week because someone else on the schedule will see that weakness and specifically plan to exploit it. Don’t stick your head in the sand like the al.com crowd and think “la la la, only gave up six points, this defense is perfect” when it most certainly is not.

Roll Bama Roll - The Champagne of Bama Blogs.

by Todd on Sep 17, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Besides, if you make mistakes and have issues, it doesn’t matter that they weren’t taken advantage of by one team on a given week because someone else on the schedule will see that weakness and specifically plan to exploit it. Don’t stick your head in the sand like the al.com crowd and think "la la la, only gave up six points, this defense is perfect" when it most certainly is not.

This.

"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself." -- Milton Friedman

by outsidethesidelines on Sep 17, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

This is exactly

why I am looking forward to this game tomorrow. I believe Duke will try to take advantage of some of the weaknesses of our secondary and capitalize on them at some point during the game. However, I don’t believe Duke will have the ability to defeat us. So basically, we will have a better barometer of where our passing D really is, the true test to come a week from tomorrow. It’s virtually impossible, in my mind, to believe that we are not going to suffer some in the passing game with the corps we have. Our first two opponents were not a good guage of where we stand. And, given the blown coverages and mistakes during the Penn St game (against a true freshman qb) as an indicater, we are in fact in trouble in that area of the game. Not to mention on several plays there were open receivers that did not get seen by the qb that a more experienced qb wouldve been able to get the ball to in most situations.

I don’t want anyone to think I am predicting doomsday or anything, but I can see that we have a long way to go with our pass defense, which was to be expected anyways.

ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!

by nashvillebama on Sep 17, 2010 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kindly point out where I asserted that the defense was perfect, please.

If you want to play semantics, we can do that, but I don’t think that’s what you want. “Stopping the pass” =/= “Stopping the pass every single time.”

The game is scored in points.

I'm wrong all the time.

by PeteHoliday on Sep 17, 2010 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

^This^

I have to go with grumpy on this one.

The game is scored in points.

Give credit where it is due. We have plenty to work on in defending the pass but so far we’ve defended it well enough to keep anyone from scoring TD’s. The criticism has to be balanced out with the love that is due to the defense.

by toofull on Sep 17, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Totally agree.

I feel so conflicted because on one play our D looks great, then on another play we totally bust a coverage or leave the quarterback standing back there with enough time to make a phone call. Inconsistency. That’s the word I’m looking for.

ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!

by nashvillebama on Sep 17, 2010 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

well it's not like anyone's been saying we haven't been able to keep teams from scoring TDs either

It’s just that we did let PSU get in position to do so a few times last week. Obviously this represents something we could improve upon, as there are teams out there who could take better advantage of getting in the red zone than PSU was able to.

"You know, we had a lot of fun tonight. But there's nothing funny about vapor lock! It's the third most common cause of cars stalling. So please, take care of your car and get it checked!" -Joe Namath

by billycthulhu on Sep 17, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

But, again:

The game is not scored in terms of how many times you let teams in position to get score but, rather, how many times you let them convert those opportunities.

The whole “we let them in position to score” argument ignores a bunch of variables, and ignores the fact that it was the defense that eventually stopped them (by forcing bad passes and turnovers). Duke is not “Penn State with a really awesome passing game” Duke is a team that has played, effectively, nobody and has no running game to speak of, so it throws the ball 40 times a game.

Throwing the ball 40 times a game is heavily dependent on getting first downs and keeping the ball because if you spend your time going three-and-out, you’re not going to get the snaps you need to throw the ball 40 times without one of the nation’s best defenses to force short drives from the other team as well (or, I guess, having terrible defenses that allow scores on one and two play drives).

There’s a hell of a lot more to it than “OMG QB WITH BIG NUMBERS”. Duke’s offensive line is going to need to give him time to throw. Penn State’s line was able to do that most of the time, but I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone attempt to make the case that Duke’s line is better than PSU’s line (or even as good), and Duke will see a better defensive front out of Alabama by virtue of Dareus’s return and facing us with an extra week of experience.

Second, when it came to PSU, they had some success on the ground, especially when they got the ball outside, so it forced us to play more honest than we’re going to have to in Durham.

So, yeah, Duke has been successful passing against Elon College and Wake Forest (two names that strike fear into the hearts of offensive coordinators everywhere, I’m sure), and we let Penn State (a cupcake, right?) complete some longer passes than we’d have liked, but I’m not convinced we’re going to be that put upon by Duke’s offense.

Could they score on us? Sure. That’s always a possibility, no matter who you’re playing, but I think the hand-wringing over their stats is a little over the top, especially for a team with a bottom 50% running game.

I'm wrong all the time.

by PeteHoliday on Sep 17, 2010 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

The point is...

…games you have already WON are determined by points instead of yards, but games you have yet to play are determined by how well you learn from your mistakes and correct them so that mistakes that haven’t cost you in the past don’t begin to cost you in the future.

Roll Bama Roll - The Champagne of Bama Blogs.

by Todd on Sep 17, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I love it when we eat our own...

Is there any fan base more recriminating than Alabama fans? I’d be hard pressed to name one…

"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero

by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 17, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

It will be nice...

to relax at home this saturday. I was at SJSU and PSU so it will be nice to just chill at home. Especially since I tend to yell until I go hoarse then yell some more at games.

by RedTideRising on Sep 17, 2010 10:28 AM CDT reply actions  

I'm interestd to see how PSU does this weekend....

I’ve watched the Bama vs PSU game several times thus far. Penn State’s strength is the size on their defensive and offensive lines. After watching several key plays in this game I was impressed how well the Nittany’s blocked and penetrated our lines. Am I the only one who thinks Bama did a solid job at the point of attack against some great players?
.
I also noticed Saban played like 57 players against PSU. Then, and I may be wrong here, but, Bama didn’t even throw a pass in the second half. So in review Bama played 57 players and merely ran the ball to eat up clock in the second half. Considering all the facts it would seem Saban knew he had the better team, brought in all the subs, kept it modest. IMO Bama took it easy on PSU, Coach didn’t wan’t to run up the score on a legend. Which is best I guess with all the goober rubbing that wen’t on last week about the matchup.

Hold my beer and watch this.

by silentboob on Sep 17, 2010 10:28 AM CDT reply actions  

How many played against, say, AU last year?

We tend to rotate a lot of players on D anyway. But I don’t know how many usually end up playing in a normal game.

If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.

by CarrotTop4 on Sep 17, 2010 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Didn't throw a pass in the 4th quarter

They did attempt 9 passes in the 3rd quarter. GMac did go back to pass once in the 4th but ran the ball.

Bama scored early in the 4th quarter and PSU got the ball and settled for a FG. At that point everyone knew it was over.

by jjdrumz on Sep 17, 2010 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

That fg

really chapped my rear end. It was an obvious ploy to avoid being shut-out and save face. Down 24 with a little over 9 to play? Maybe they were trying to get some live special teams work in, but it seems to be that if they really wanted to challenge themselves they would’ve gone for a td instead. A td wouldve pissed me off too, but at least it wouldve given the appearance that they were actually trying to win the game. Again, that fg really pissed me off.

ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!

by nashvillebama on Sep 17, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yah me too, then that half heartedly executed on sided kick....

WTF was that about? You take a FG instead of trying for the TD, then kick it onsides???

Hold my beer and watch this.

by silentboob on Sep 17, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

You take the points because you’re down 2 touchdowns and a FG. You need a field goal eventually so you take it now and worry about the TDs later. Also, it avoids the shut out which nobody likes.

by Bumpjon on Sep 17, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

That should be 3 TDs

by Bumpjon on Sep 17, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

And really

Wanting a shutout is just as superficial as wanting to avoid being shut out, if not more so.

(not saying I didn’t want a shutout)

"You know, we had a lot of fun tonight. But there's nothing funny about vapor lock! It's the third most common cause of cars stalling. So please, take care of your car and get it checked!" -Joe Namath

by billycthulhu on Sep 17, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

True.

I am very superficial in that regard.

ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!

by nashvillebama on Sep 17, 2010 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well the onside kickoff

really ticked me off. Given your point above, you don’t kick a field goal and then try an onside kick. I wish we would have went down and scored again after that.

ROLL TIDE ROLL!!!!!

by alanbama14 on Sep 17, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Down 3 TDs you don’t kick an onsides kick against a team you can’t stop!?!

by Bumpjon on Sep 17, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wait, is that a question or a statement!?!

If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.

by CarrotTop4 on Sep 17, 2010 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes

Roll 'Bama Roll: The Champagne of 'Bama Blogs.

by kleph on Sep 17, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why on earth would a team forego points being down by 24? You need them all. Here’s why:

24 points = three TDs and a FG or three TDs plus all three 2-point conversions.

If you miss EVEN ONE of the 2-point conversions, you now need to score a fourth time, just like you would have with the TD. 2 point conversions tend to be successful, on average, a little under half the time. So there’s a 7-in-8 chance that you’ll screw up at least one of them. Further, if you’re playing a team with a weak passing defense, the last thing you want to do is create must-convert situations in the short field, where pass defense is easier.

Further, you have to account for the possibility that the team who has scored 24 points on you might score some more. If they do that, your plan to score three times and get 2-point conversions goes straight down the drain, and scoring four (or more) times becomes an absolute requirement just to tie.

10 minutes left, you take the points.

Also, and separately, the bottom line is this: championship caliber teams don’t get bent out of shape at the other team for trying to score, they know exactly whose job it is to stop them, and exactly where the fault lies for the failure to do so. You want to be pissed at someone for the three points Penn State earned? I’m sure Mr. Dareus would be happy to speak with you about that.

I'm wrong all the time.

by PeteHoliday on Sep 17, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

As for as the great OL play . . .

We have one SR, one JR, two sophs, and 1 FR. Unbelievable how bright the future is.

by Son of Roaring Dan on Sep 17, 2010 10:35 AM CDT reply actions  

Yes Sir, Saban has recruited very very very well in the trenches.

The starters are impressive. We have a slew of unleashed talent waiting their turn. I for one am excited to see Arie Kuondjio develope. It’s been rumored he’s a beast.

Hold my beer and watch this.

by silentboob on Sep 17, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

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