What are your thoughts on oversigning?
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 9:09 AM CDT
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PrintNot to speak for all Penn State fans or sound overly arrogant, but a lot of us like to think our team, university, and conference have a pretty high moral and ethical standard. The whole Paterno's Grand Experiment, Success with Honor, student-athlete thing, we eat it up. These principals are what carry us through those tough 7-6 seasons.
Because of these ideals, one topic that continues to surface in the lead up to the game with you guys is the practice of oversigning. A lot of us feel that this practice is unethical and flies in the face of what college football is supposed to be about. For those that don't know what oversigning is, you can check out oversigning.com.
Basically I want to give you Alabama fans an opportunity to voice your opinion on the subject. Do you dislike the practice as much as we do? Do you feel that it is a necessary evil in order to compete in the SEC? Do you think it's completely fair, allowing the best football players the opportunity to earn their scholarship? Or do you simply think us arrogant, elitist Penn State fans should mind our own business?
For the record, I know this might be a touchy subject, but I am not trying to troll. I hope we can keep this conversation rather civilized.
FanPosts are just that; posts created by the fans. They are in no way indicative of the opinions of SBN and the authors of Roll Bama Roll.
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"Or do you simply think us arrogant, elitist Penn State fans should mind our own business?"
You’ve answered your own question.
Roll Bama Roll - The Champagne of Bama Blogs.
The Penn State theme of "our program is so clean!" is getting a bit old
I mean football fans start talking about ethics when their team hasn’t accomplished anything in awhile
on the Dareus subject I’ve seen them say “If they told Joe they were going to suspend our player for two games he’d tell him ’That’s fine, but I’m going to suspend him for the year.’”
which is all well and good, Joe Paterno is a classy guy one of the great all time coaches and yada yada yada.
but really the conversation would probably sound more like this.
“Coach Paterno we’re going to suspend Dareus for two games.”
“WHAT!?”
“Er, I, uh, I said we’re going to suspend Dareus for two games.”
“TAKE A LEFT ON THIRD STREET, YOU CANT MISS IT.”
“What? Uh, no. Um, what I said, er, WHAT I SAID IS THAT DAREUS IS SUSPENEDED FOR TWO GAMES.”
“HARRY TRUMAN! GOOD MAN.”
“How did you even get that from what I…? MARCELL DAREUS. CAN. NOT. PLAY. FOR. TWO. GAMES.”
“OH. WELL I’M GOING TO KEEP HIM OUT THE YEAR.”
In fact, most SEC players don't consider their careers complete unless their bus nearly gets overturned in Baton Rouge or someone flings bodily fluid at their coach's wife in Gainesville. - Andy Staples
by Wallacewade04 on Sep 8, 2010 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions
I think you can debate the subject without resorting to making
hearing/senility jokes at Joe’s expense.
I haven’t heard this claim that Joe would sit the kid for the whole year in such a case. Is there any precedent to back that claim up, or just a general feeling of superiority?
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
Whoever made that claim was being a little bit silly.
Since as I just said the worst NCAA violation at PSU was Curtis Enis’s accepting a suit from an agent. There hasn’t been any trouble since.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 8, 2010 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Its was in Black Shor Diaries
but I think it started in the comment section
In fact, most SEC players don't consider their careers complete unless their bus nearly gets overturned in Baton Rouge or someone flings bodily fluid at their coach's wife in Gainesville. - Andy Staples
by Wallacewade04 on Sep 8, 2010 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
It started in the comment section and then was reiterated on the main page
“Alabama will not appeal Marcell Dareus’ two game suspension
As somebody said earlier— If Marcell Dareus played for Penn State—NCAA puts Dareus out for 2 weeks, Joe says “Ok, but he’s going to sit out all year”"
"I mean, the stuff I do out there in practice is amazing," he said. "I shock myself sometimes."-Julio Jones
by The Voice of Reason on Sep 8, 2010 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Penn State has won two Big Ten championships within the last five years and has won 11 games over two consecutive years. While this isn’t as good as a BCS championship, Penn State is still a fine program.
Feel free to make fun of Joe Paterno, we’re used to it from Pitt and Ohio State fans. But the fact remains that Joe Paterno has won more games than any other coach in major college football and the closest thing we’ve had to an NCAA problem was when Curtis Enis accepted a suit. Thanks, Curt. Maybe we wouldn’t have gotten crushed by Florida if you had played, goofball.
I’m not going to argue with you guys about your program because I don’t want to fight over anything except football.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 8, 2010 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
sorry if I offended y'alls coach
we put of with NIck Satan references all the time and yada yada yada
just trying ot have a little fun at an oppossing fan bases expense while highlighting the holier than thou theme that Penn State and the Big Ten has decided to start advertising ever since the SEC became the media’s favorite child
In fact, most SEC players don't consider their careers complete unless their bus nearly gets overturned in Baton Rouge or someone flings bodily fluid at their coach's wife in Gainesville. - Andy Staples
by Wallacewade04 on Sep 8, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Penn State hasn't decided to start some holier than thou theme just now.
Penn State is in the 800 wins club and they’ve done it with no NCAA violations. The entire athletic program is one of the few major programs (even in our own conference) with no NCAA violations. We’ve always been extremely proud of that. We as a fanbase have even been a little bit arrogant to our “eastern rivals” because we’ve done this and this without any NCAA troubles. But our pride, our love for Joe Paterno, and the holier than thou arrogance we exhibit on occasion for fun, none of it is new. I don’t mean to take this comment section entirely off topic, but I felt the need to say it.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 8, 2010 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
i think we just found a GameDay poster
same image as the JoPa “Brains!” stencil, only swap out the phrasing from “Brains!” (which is brilliant but old) to “Harry Truman? Good man…”
The beauty of The Process is that you have never arrived, so you get to continue being perpetually awesome... -Espyonage
by tempebamafan on Sep 8, 2010 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
The thing about over-signing is that the devil is in the details. As long as you do it the “right” way, there isn’t really any problem with it. You can always prevent any problems from over-signing by grey shirting incoming players. If you make it clear to the people you’re recruiting that this is a possibility, and they agree to come to your school with that as a possibility, then what’s the big deal? As Alabama fans we’re pretty confident that Nick Saban, being the detail-oriented workaholic that he is, does things the right way.
On the other hand, when your coach is a bumbling moron like Les Miles, over-signing can be a problem. When you hear stories about a kid being kicked out of the dorm he’s already moved into because LSU realizes “oops, we don’t have a scholarship for you” at the last minute, yea that is pretty bad.
And what Todd said.
"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted
I agree.
As long as the kids know what the deal is, then I don’t see the problem. Ethics is about treating people fairly, and if you’re upfront with them, I don’t see what’s not fair about it.
Injuries, transfers, and kids not making their grades are facts of life. If you’re not planning for contingincies, then you’re not a good leader. You have to plan for those things. The way you do so is by oversigning. If none of those things happen, then you ask a few kids to grayshirt. If they do happen, then you’re set. I haven’t heard any players complaining about it, so no offense, VVeRPennState, but yeah I think you’re being a little bit of an arrogant elitist thinking that you have some sort of moral superiority about it.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
Agree about the contingencies
Additionally, these fringe players are probably aware when they sign that there is a chance that they’ll greyshirt. They accept that chance in exchange for the opportunity to play for Bama.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Yep, the kids are definitely aware of the possibility.
I would have a problem with it if they weren’t.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
As for the difference between the way LSU conducts itself and Alabama, I am sure you are more familiar with the details than I am. But do you think that since there is the potential for abuse, either through malicuousness or incompetence, that it might benefit the players and the sport to outlaw the practice entirely?
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Why?
There is the potential for abuse at every level of university academics and athletics. Profs can let students pass who didn’t earn it. Coaches can intentionally ‘misevaluate’ injuries and do permanent damage to the players’ bodies. Etc. etc. etc. Should we just end the university system because somebody might be unethically treated at some point down the road?
And what you’re doing by outlawing the practice is causing several players every year to miss out on scholarships they would have otherwise received because injuries or academic issues or whatever opened up spots that were not previously available.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Great summation and response
I voted for Kleph and all I got was this lousy t-shirt
by BamaReturns07 on Sep 8, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I guess our beliefs are just fundamentally different.
I simply don’t see how this practice provides benefit to the sport or its athletes. Because of that, I think the potential for abuse should lead to it being outlawed.
As far as your second point, if oversigning was outlawed, I don’t see it hurting many recruits. They will likely drop down and get a scholarship at another school.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
They will likely drop down and get a scholarship at another school.
They key word there being “down.” We’re talking about a scholarship to Alabama vs. one to UNA? Jacksonville State? Those are fine institutions, I’m sure, but they simply don’t come with the stature of Alabama. Granted, all of the recruits might not have to drop that far – the 4-5 stars could probably make a lateral move – but others would not be able to do that and that is a disservice to them both on an academic and football front.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
You are right
They would likely need to drop down. But that does not mean getting a worse education. There are plenty of schools that are just as good as Alabama academically that would love to take some of their football castoffs. But it does come at the cost of not being at a school with the same athletic prestige.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions
And as Bumpjon says,
there is a bottom, so at some point a kid is getting crowded out of a scholarship, somewhere down in the depths of Division II.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
I'm not saying
they’d get a worse education, but having “Alabama” on your diploma opens doors in the business world that UNA simply does not. Especially in-state. There is far more at stake here than just athletic prestige.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I am not going to debate the value of an Alabama degree.
But it is silly to say there aren’t any other degrees that can offer a similar value.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Nobody said there aren't any other degrees that can offer a similar value.
Only that the lower tier (Jacksonville State, UNA) aren’t equitable. If you disagree with that fact, then you are simply wrong.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Apparently you're also not going to debate the fact that
somewhere at the bottom of the food chain a kid is going without a scholarship when scholarships at the top of the chain go unfilled.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
I was honestly looking for a particular piece of evidence before I responded.
I remember reading somewhere that when the 85 scholarship limit was introduced, the overall number of scholarships remained relatively stable. The scholarships simply trickled down the system until it eventually balanced itself out. I imagine this would be a similar situation. I simply didn’t want to post until I had a source to cite, because I am not sure that I remember it exactly right.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
By NCAA rule, there is a finite number of scholarsips available.
Right? I don’t see how you imagine that it’s going to “balance itself out”. How??
I guess you could argue that if no schools oversigned, then most schools would stay constantly below the 85 limit. Then if a kid wanted to transfer in, the school would have a scholly available for him without denying a scholly to another recruit. BUT in that circumstance EVERY school has schollies going unused. So there are fewere schollies being used than there are currently. So then that means there are kids being left out.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
Not all schools, especially lower down the list, can (or want to) fill a roster full of scholarship players. Sure, if your school is making money hand over fist every year, you have an incentive to make sure you’re paying 85 scholarships a year, but if you are struggling to get your athletic department into the black, you’re not going to hand out scholarships to walk-ons who aren’t any good, but if you can get a coulpe of 3*s that you couldn’t have gotten before, you probably would.
I'm wrong all the time.
What? No.
Previous list of players on Tiny School A (EA Sports Rating in parens, scholarships denoted by asterisks):
Before limits:
Bobby (78) *
Sam (77) *
Joe (70) *
Frank (65) *
Bill (55)
James (50)
After a limit of five scholarships per team:
Bobby (78) *
Sam (77) *
Joe (70) *
Frank (65) *
Phil (64) *
Bill (55)
James (50)
I'm wrong all the time.
James sucks.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Bill never had a skolly.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Misread it. I see now. In Pete’s scenario A only offered 4 scholarships in the first scenario and 5 in the second scenario so no one lost a scholarship. But if My point was, if Tiny School A was going to offer 5 scholarships then Bill would have gotten a scholarship. But if Tiny School A was going to give 5 scholarships anyways and since Big School B couldn’t oversign Alvin had to take the scholarship to Medium School C. Alvin’s scholarship pushed Phil out of a scholarship at MSB and he went to Tiny School A. That means that Bill loses a scholarship.
Well yeah that's the difference.
Pete’s saying that Tiny School A never would’ve given Bill a scholarship anyway, because he’s a piss poor tackler and his mom dresses him funny.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
jesus bill
get it together…
The beauty of The Process is that you have never arrived, so you get to continue being perpetually awesome... -Espyonage
This
The assumption here is that money is tight for Tiny School A, so they aren’t going to pay the way of players who aren’t good.
I'm wrong all the time.
Ok, what if Tiny School A on had the money for 4 scholarships and even though Frank (65) is slightly better than Phil (64), Phil fills a critical position need? Does Frank then lose the scholarship?
But wait,
what if Frank was the son of a former player who had incriminating pictures of the coach?
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
I don’t have any idea what you’re getting at, but I’m pretty sure you don’t understand what’s going on here.
I'm wrong all the time.
The main point was that if oversigning was outlawed, that nobody would be hurt. The guys that didn’t get signed at the top schools would drop down to the next level and get a scholarship there. I thought that if that happened it would eventually crowd out the guys that just barely got the scholarships at Little School A. Someone said that doesn’t happen because the little schools don’t use all of their scholarships and they’ll just give another scholarship out to the kids on the edge. Someone, I think it might have been you, mentioned that most smaller schools don’t use all of their scholarships because of financial reasons, not because they don’t have the talent. So, if the lowest level of schools only offered four scholarships, because that’s all they could afford, and some kid that would have otherwise been greyshirted at a better school took a scholarship at Little School A, then one of the guys who would have gotten a scholarship if not for the rule against oversigning, got screwed out of a scholarship.
Now if Little School A is going to offer more scholarships because of better talent, then nobody is hurt. But more likely is that Little School A will offer the same number of scholarships, just to better players.
You’re putting words in my mouth.
Not wanting to spend money on a crappy player does not mean they don’t have the money to spend.
If money is tight, I’m not going to give money to a bench-warmer just for grins, but I might give money to a player that can contribute.
If money is flowing like water, hell, give out all the scholarships the NCAA will allow.
You’re trying to take an example used to illustrate a potential effect of recruits trickling down and trying to use it as a canonical proof of all of the possible effects.
I'm wrong all the time.
His second paragraph is the
entire debate. You’re saying this:
if Little School A is going to offer more scholarships because of better talent, then nobody is hurt.
And he’s saying this:
But more likely is that Little School A will offer the same number of scholarships, just to better players.
Hope I’m not putting words in your mouth there.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
That quote of is isn’t backed up by anything and it assumes the school is already spending the max amount of money they could possibly spend.
It doesn’t really make any sense.
I'm wrong all the time.
I was going to suggest that
you could look at numbers of scholarship players at various schools, but that doesn’t really answer the question of whether they’re under the limit because they don’t want to spend more on the available players or just because of things like unexpected attrition.
How many schools don’t sign their full 25 though? Despite not being at the 85 limit? I think that would be the proof. Though, to be honest, I’ve never heard of schools doing that. But I could be wrong.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
I may have misunderstood your point but I did not want to put words in your mouth. And, like CarrotTop said, I think it’s more likely that they would offer the same amount of scholarships. I never said that it would happen, just that it’s more likely than them doling out more money just because a slightly better player comes down the pike.
There is potential for abuse in every aspect of the game, from recruiting all the way to actually playing.
Let’s just outlaw the game — NANNY STATE FOR LIFE.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Sep 8, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
A consequence to outlawing the practice
Players will have to sign much earlier to ensure they get a spot. Which is obviously bad for the people that make money selling recruiting drama but may also not be good for the student that has less opportunity to make visits either. Personally, though I like the talent depth, I would be fine with changing the policy, provided it’s done universally and not on a conference by conference basis. So a few scholarships go unused a year, big deal. But like other posters have said, the key is if the players understand going in that they may have to greyshirt. That makes the ethical dilemma a moot point and allows guys that might not have even been offered a scholarship under different conditions get a spot on the team.
By the looks of things, I'm pretty sure God doesn't care how you do in sports.
LSU v. Alabama
For the record, Miles isn’t the only “bumbling moron” who caused a player to be kicked out of the dorms. Saban did the same exact thing.
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/08/scarbinsky_late_grayshirts_a_b.html
Yes, I know a spot later opened up and he returned to the team, but actually, the same thing happened at LSU. A spot opened up after Zach Lee signed a pro baseball contract, but Porter had already decided to leave.
But if the outage is over a kid losing his spot in the dorm at the last minute… well, pot, kettle, and all that.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
Except that there’s no evidence that Jones wasn’t made aware that he would have to sit if Sims cleared, something we have stated pretty explicitly in the LSU case.
But, hey, keep on comparing yourselves to Alabama — you’ve gotten really good at it.
I'm wrong all the time.
Shifting goalposts
There’s also evidence that Porter was made aware of it, and evidence he wasn’t. But that’s fine, and I don’t really care that much.
That wasn’t the accusation. The accusation was that Miles was a “bumbling moron” for having a scholarship pulled at the last minute causing a guy to get kicked out of the dorm. Which is what happened at Bama as well. When you issue condemnations of another program, it loses some of its moral force when your program is doing the same thing. That’s all.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
He’s a bumbling moron for having never (according to the kid) told the player that he didn’t have a guaranteed spot.
I'm wrong all the time.
as a person who deals with
18 year old kids every day i can tell you most will lie through their teeth at a drop of a dime to save face. Im not saying that Les isn’t a bumbling idiot. Anyone who watches him coach a game can attest to that…Im just saying you can’t take the kids word as the truth.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
I have some news for you: that’s not an age thing, but “LOL THIS GUY IS ONLY 18 HE MUST BE A LIAR” isn’t really much as far as reasoned responses.
I'm wrong all the time.
but you're taking the kids word
as truth and implying that Les is lying….My point is, both are probably lying.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
I could be wrong
but I don’t recall seeing where Miles claimed to have informed the kid ahead of time.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
oh..i don't know if he did or not.
Thats really not my point. But to take the word of someone who’s been “screwed” over the “screwer” without anything more than “his word against mine” doesn’t sound like the Pete i know.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
The point is there is no "his word against mine".
Miles didn’t defend his actions (again, as far as I can recall) because he couldn’t defend them.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
From Poseur
There’s also evidence that Porter was made aware of it, and evidence he wasn’t.
in this case.. Ill refer to a LSU fan who 1) has always been on the straight and up and 2) knows a hell of alot more about the situation than we do.
Much like this PSU guy trying to stir shit up the week of our game..We are making assumptions on a case we know little about. Im not defending what Miles did, but I doubt a Bama fan took the time to read every article and watch every presser to make sure that Les never defended himself.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
Ill refer to a LSU fan who 1) has always been on the straight and up
You must have him confused with someone else.
I'm wrong all the time.
Maybe you've had other dealings with him
But when ATVS was ran by Poseur, it was one of my daily blogs. Now….not so much. Not to blow smoke up his butt but ive always felt he was more pro-LSU and less Pro-Miles..But then again, maybe you’ve had a different experience.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
Thanks
to be clear, I don’t feel Saban acting inappropriately, I was just pointing out that jumping on Miles for this while giving Saban a pass is drawing an awful thin line. I was only objecting to the statement that LSU was clearly in the wrong, while Bama’s practices are okay.
Kids get greyshirted. that’s what happens. It sucks for the kid, but that’s the way the rules are set up. If the NCAA changes the rules, then stop doing it. Until then, you’d be foolish not to play the numbers game.
My ultimate take is that Porter likely, like many 18 year old kids, heard what he wanted to hear. I don’t think he’s lying in any way, I just think he only heard what he wanted to hear. I also think it’s entirely fair to say Miles didn’t effectively communicate to make Porter understand. that ultimately falls on Miles. I have no problem with saying “its Miles’ fault”, he’s the adult in this situation. I do object when people start claiming this proves he’s a moron or evil. He can count (Ole Miss nonwithstanding), he just had late qualifiers. He did likely talk to the kid, he just didn’t communicate effectively to be sure Porter understood.
…And I’ve never “run” ATVS, I contribute. I’m a holdover from the Pittman days.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I think
I added enough qualifiers to make it clear that I wasn’t claiming to know for certain that miles never made such claims.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions
fair enough..
but I think sometimes our opinions on our rivals are manipulated by our hate for said rivals…
We all think Miles is an idiot. So when something like this comes up we jump on the “MILES IS A BAFOON” train…
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
I’m taking him at his word because there’s no reason to believe that he’s lying. It would be easy for Miles to have said, unequivocally, that he told the kid about this. Better if he had it in writing, although that would demand a level of savviness that Miles almost certainly lacks.
I'm wrong all the time.
and again..
im not saying that the kid IS lying. Just that there’s a good chance he is. In my dealings, when someone gets burned, rational thinking goes out the window. The kid lost his scholly and is obviously pissed about. Im not sure if thats a reason to lie but it at least could be.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
You don’t know this kid, and you’re saying “there’s a good chance” he’s lying?
That’s actually pretty shitty of you.
We have no reason to believe that what he’s saying is even false (if it’s not false, makes it really hard for it to be a lie). We have no reason to believe that, even if it’s false, that he doesn’t think he’s being truthful (It’d be pretty easy for Miles to have squeezed in a little disclaimer at some point that he didn’t catch or remember).
It’s not like you have evidence that the kid is immature, dishonest, or of otherwise questionable character, you’re basically saying that because you know some 18 year olds who are immature and dishonest, there’s a “good chance” this person is too. It’s silly.
I'm wrong all the time.
im channeling my inner Dumb and Dumber here..
“So you’re telling me there’s a chance?”
There’s a chance that both sides are lying..
There’s a chance that neither is lying and it was a honest mistake.
There’s a chance that Miles is right and also one that he’s wrong..
The fact is, there are no facts but just what this kid said and what Miles has said. Either way, i don’t really care.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
That's a weasely response
You didn’t say there was a chance. Here’s what you said:
Im just saying you can’t take the kids word as the truth.
My point is, both are probably lying.
im not saying that the kid IS lying. Just that there’s a good chance he is.
You called the kid everything but a liar based on nothing but his age.
I'm wrong all the time.
ok?
some what if I am? Like I said, he could be lying. Miles probably is lying. Hell id bet my house both sides aren’t telling the truth…
What’s SO wrong with saying that an 18 year old kid could be “forgeting” that he was told he might have to redshirt? Obviously, you have nothing wrong with saying that Miles is lying.
And for the record, i really dont care who’s telling the truth or who’s lying. Cause at the end of the day, Miles is still an asshat.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
So now you’re saying “Who cares if I call some kid I don’t know a liar”?
Classy, bammer.
I'm wrong all the time.
what im saying is
with the facts we have before us (which are none btw) you can look at it from multiple angles. And one of those is that this kid/ person/ man could be lying. COULD not IS. Im not seeing the big deal in that.
We are both making assumptions here Pete. And this arugment is about as dumb as the one about how to properly abbreviate San Jose State..i still can’t remember if you’re suppose to add the “U” at the end.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
Saying there aren’t any facts doesn’t make it so.
Fact: The kid claimed Miles never told him getting bumped was an option.
Poseur has alluded to it, but do we actually have any place where Miles or LSU deny that claim?
Do we have any facts to support the notion that he’s lying just for shits and giggles?
You think it’s stupid to argue about, I think it’s ignorant to lump all 18 year olds into the same group and then assume because some act that way, all act that way.
I'm wrong all the time.
Also worth noting
One of your “reasons”:
when someone gets burned, rational thinking goes out the window.
If you’re assuming he got burned, you’re already assuming he’s telling the truth in complaining about getting burned.
I'm wrong all the time.
not exactly the same thing IMO
He had to move out of the dorm, and he won’t be on an athletic scholarship until next semester. He can’t practice with the team, work out with the team or travel with the team.
Instead, he’ll be a part-time student this semester, taking nine hours, and he’ll live in the condo his parents had leased for his older brother to call home and for the family to share on football weekends.
The circumstances with Jones were such that it doesn’t seem to be a big deal for him. It’s one thing to kick a guy out to the curb at the last second, and another to ask him to chill out for a few months at his condo.
We don’t feel like we were treated unfairly at all, and they explained everything.
"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted
So, it's the reaction of the player that matters?
Serious question. You’d be okay with Porter getting greyshirted at the last minute had he just kept his trap shut? And it’s an open question how efeectively Saban had commicated to Jones as well, looking at his mom’s quote:
“It’s disappointing when you don’t really expect it, but we understand it.”
Jones took the news well, which is a credit to him, and he’s, if I understand correctly, back on the team due to a last second change in the roster. But it seems to me the only real difference is that one kid handled the news better than the other. That seems to be a strange place to make the distinction on institutional practices.
i’m not saying Saban did anything wrong. But it seems like a pretty odd stance to call out Miles’ practice yet praise Saban’s when they are so similar.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
See Pete's comment above
Except that there’s no evidence that Jones wasn’t made aware that he would have to sit if Sims cleared, something we have stated pretty explicitly in the LSU case.
Obviously the it’s not “the reaction of the player that matters”. That would be silly. You’re reading Jones’ Mother’s quote to mean what you want it to mean. She could very well be saying that they didn’t expect Sims to clear. It doesn’t mean they weren’t informed of what would happen if he did.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the unexpected comment was because they weren’t expecting Blake Sims to qualify.
But my main point which you are ignoring is that the impact on Jones was pretty minimal given that his family had a condo for him to stay at in Tuscaloosa and he was able to stay in school. Judging by Jones’s reaction, I don’t think he had anything like those options.
My understanding of the LSU situation is that they had too many people show up because they weren’t on top of the numbers. Feel free to correct me if that’s not the case. At UA we had a guy that we didn’t think would qualify get in at the 11th hour, and we asked someone to grayshirt to make room for that guy. We could have had Sims grayshirt of course. So it’s possible that due to his circumstances Jones was given a choice to help the team out by grayshirting instead given an order.
"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted
We had two problems...
… one, unexpected qualifiers. which sounds great, but we had 3-4 guys who were in very real danger of not qualifying, and then they all qualified against the odds.
The second issue was Zach Lee. He showed up on campus, took a spot and schollie slot, and then a week later bolted for that sweet MLB cash. I don’t blame Lee for that at all, but it is ironic. For all of the criticism LSU has taken for its negotiating position in regards to the student, LSU got hosed by the baseball player, where the negotiating positions of the parties are reversed.
The situations are remarkably similar and I think y’all are slicing it rather thin to make it a different situation. Which is fine, that’s what fans do. But where I object was the fake moral outrage of how Porter was kicked out of the dorm, when, if that is your standard, Alabama is equally guilty. The original comment was that Miles is a bumbling moron because…
When you hear stories about a kid being kicked out of the dorm he’s already moved into because LSU realizes "oops, we don’t have a scholarship for you" at the last minute, yea that is pretty bad.
I fail to see how the two situations do not meet the same criteria of the original post. I think you’re also reading into the player’s quotes, as the “explained everything” line doesn’t have a timeframe on it. But I’m also not claiming any outrage over a grayshirt when a guy qualifies late. That’s what happens.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
It’s simple, the stance of every ‘Bama fan here that I’ve seen is: as long as everyone knows the score, let the adults make their own choices.
There is not a single shred of evidence to suggest that Jones (and his family) weren’t aware of the repercussions of Sims qualifying. Until that evidence surfaces, there’s a world of difference.
It’s not being kicked out of the dorm that’s the problem alone. It’s being kicked out of the dorm because you weren’t made aware that you only had a spot if other players didn’t take them. If Jones was aware that Sims qualifying was going mess things up, and he chose to attend Alabama anyway, he was the one responsible for that result, not Saban. He knew what the risks were and believed the possible reward of playing for Alabama was worth the risk of being left out in the cold.
That does not appear to be the case with LSU, where the kid was under the impression that everything was all set, when it very clearly was not. Maybe Miles just made a judgment call and a relatively unprecedented level of “maybes” punching their eligibility cards caused him to have to break a promise that he thought was a lock, but the problem is with not being up front with the players and, in so doing, not allowing them to make their decisions with full information.
I'm wrong all the time.
TL;DR?
informed consent Bama kid gave his, LSU kid could not have, as he was never informed.
The beauty of The Process is that you have never arrived, so you get to continue being perpetually awesome... -Espyonage
I will give you that the situations are fairly close, and I’d be pretty upset if our guy wasn’t in a good situation regardless.
"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted
I would too
I think it sucks for Porter. Getting greyshirted has to absolutely suck – it’s being told you were the least valuable guy in the class (though LSU has had great success with greyshirts – Trindon Holliday and Harry Coleman especially).
Porter’s options were to wait until spring and have his schollie honored or be released from the schollie and transfer without waiting a ayear. He chose to transfer to Kentucky, an SEC school, without having to miss a year. Had he stayed at LSU, the same thing would have happened to him as had to Jones. Once Lee bolted to the MLB, it opened up a scholarship for Porter. Which now will go to someone else, probably in the next class.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
Yep, I was thinking about that same thing....
Bama's Pluck and Grit have Writ Her Name in Crimson Flame
by TideFanAtlanta on Sep 8, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
To me, the SEC just needs some additional rules to tweak oversigning:
- The Miles Rule: LSU is granted an 86th scholarship player provided he is slotted at the “timekeeper” position.
- The Second Nutt Rule: Ole Miss is allowed to sign as many players as they want, because they’ll still find a way to shoot themselves in the foot and be—at best—the third best team in the SEC West every damn year. The SEC has determined that whether Ole Miss oversigns or undersigns, there is no demonstrable advantage for that sinking turd of a program under Nutt.
- The Zook Rule: All SEC coaches who oversign and who are noted for being “good recruiters” will have to have as many wins as they do 5-star recruits over a four year period. Those that do not will have to provide the media a one-page letter indicating that the media cannot use this “good recruiter” term any more. (The Big Ten has been considering adopting this rule as well)
- The Fulmer Rule: Violations of signing rules also apply to oversigning, provided the violation is reported by an unknown assistant coach in Memphis.
Bloggin' at joepasdoghouse.com
by Cairo on Sep 8, 2010 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
"good recruiters" will have to have as many wins as they do 5-star recruits
So then Saban will be limited to no more than 14 5-star recruits? That doesn’t seem very fair. I guess they’ll just have to stop calling him a “good recruiter” if he gets too many top players. LOL
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
It is necessary, and there is no evil in it if it's done right.
A scholarship is not a four-five year guarantee. It is a one year guarantee that will be renewed if the conditions of earning it are met. There is no difference between a student losing a scholarship based on a low GPA (failure to produce), and a football player losing one because, try as he might, he has failed to learn the schemes (failure to produce). Either scenario may or may not be out of the student’s control, but in either case, conditions were not met. It’s the same thing. If the first is not unethical, neither is the second. Cutting non-producers to make scholarship room is exactly what is done on the academic end all the time – why not in football? For the record, the way Alabama does this is by putting players on medical scholarships, or other available schollys to help them finish their education – TOTALLY ethical in my book.
There is a huge difference between promising a recruit a scholarship, and then grayshirting them, and being up front with them from the start and telling them that they might have to grayshirt. If the second is done, then grayshirting those players to make room on the roster is totally ethical. They were never promised anything but an opportunity from the start, and they still have a chance to make the roster. No problem. Ethics get involved, however, when stuff happens like Zoltar said above with LSU – a kid is told he might grayshirt, but is not informed that he actually will until he has moved to campus. That is wrong, and should never happen.
Oh, yeah…and what Todd said.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 9:31 AM CDT reply actions
For the record, the way Alabama does this is by putting players on medical scholarships, or other available schollys to help them finish their education – TOTALLY ethical in my book.
Well kids that aren’t producing because they are injured are put on medical scholarships. Which is the entire reason for having those scholarships. Nothing unethical about that.
Other kids that aren’t producing because they just aren’t good enough or aren’t working hard enough to break into the depth chart are generally encouraged to transfer, NOT on “other available schollys”. Sorry, just wanted to make sure we were painting the full picture. I also don’t see a problem with telling a kid that he should think about transferring if he wants to play. You’re not revoking his scholly, and it works out best for everyone (including the player) if he goes somewhere else where he can get playing time. Maybe it’s semantics, but I don’t see a problem with it. You don’t promise a kid playing time when you’re recruiting him, so you’re not breaking any promises.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
You're right.
Good point.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Other kids that aren’t producing because they just aren’t good enough… are generally encouraged to transfer
Not saying this doesn’t happen, but it is still conjecture. I’d like to think that a player who’s giving it his all on the field, is invested in his academics, is a good teammate, but simply doesn’t have the talent to crack the depth chart wouldn’t be asked to leave. But it’s just impossible to know for sure without being on the inside. I think we have probably had a few cases where players that fit that category who have already completed their degree are asked to transfer or simply leave the team. I don’t have a big issue with that since they got their diploma.
"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted
I would hope for this as well. Possible proof: Grant.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it's all in the approach.
Those kids should absolutely not be forced to transfer. But on the other hand I see nothing wrong with a coach leveling with a kid, “Son, I don’t think you’re ever going to see the field here. You have a scholarship, and you’re welcome to stay and play on our scout team. But if you want to play on Saturdays, you’ll go somewhere else.” There’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, I would say it’s in the player’s best interest. (I’m sure Saban could word it some way better to keep the kid motivated if he did decide to stay, but that would be the gist of it in my mind.)
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
I completely agree.
The problem is that from an outsiders perspective it seems like this discussions only comes after the limit has already been reached. This make it look like kids are steered in the direction that would be best for the school, which is occasionally not in the kids best interests.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
The problem is that from an outsiders perspective it seems like this discussions only comes after the limit has already been reached.
That’s from the perspective of an outsider who already thinks oversigning is a problem. Back in the real world, how do you know when those discussions take place?
You’re right, that Saban has the program’s interests as his top priority. But on the other hand, the kids know where they are on the depth chart. And for all I know, they’re having similar conversations with all players regardless of the numbers. But if the player wants to stick around, and the numbers aren’t a problem, then I don’t think it’s Saban’s responsibility to tell him he’s making a mistake. Some kids just want to get their education and to be able to say they were part of something special, rather than being a big fish in a smaller pond. Nothing wrong with that either.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
i would honestly argue CNS has the kids interests as his first priority
and the programs interests as his second. call me naiv, old fashioned, a homer, etc. thats what Saban says is his top priority, the kids, and i take him at his word.
The beauty of The Process is that you have never arrived, so you get to continue being perpetually awesome... -Espyonage
by tempebamafan on Sep 8, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
That’s from the perspective of an outsider who already thinks oversigning is a problem. Back in the real world, how do you know when those discussions take place?
That is exactly right. If Saban just randomly called these kids in a week before fall practice and said, “Oh by the way, you don’t have a scholarship anymore,” that would be terrible. The fact is, though, that it’s around the week before fall camp when WE find out about it – not necessarily when those conversations take place. I have no insider information by any means, but it would surprise me greatly if in nearly every case it went something more like Saban calling the recruit in at the end of spring practice and saying, “Your game’s not coming along like we want – you’ve got the summer to get better, or you’re on the scout team. Keep in mind, transferring might be an option. Etc.” He could obviously put it better than that, but you get the idea. Again, where is the problem?
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Once again the problem is timing.
Signing day is in February. Which means a school who oversigns is already over the limit before spring practice even starts. The whole spring season Saban needs to keep in the back of his mind that he needs to clear up X number of scholarship slots. If by the start of fall, not enough players have been hurt, ruled academically ineligible, or voluntarily transferred, Saban needs to start cutting players.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
If by the start of fall, not enough players have been hurt, ruled academically ineligible, or voluntarily transferred, Saban needs to start cutting players.
No, as we already said, that’s when grayshirts start happening.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
by CarrotTop4 on Sep 8, 2010 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And, I would add
that the players who end up transferring out can see it coming from a mile away. They either realize their place on the depth chart and know playing time just ain’t gonna happen, or the coach gives it to them straight and lets them know that they are under-performing and need to size up their options. It’s not like they can’t see this stuff before signing day hits – they know how they performed the previous fall.
Also, you’re assuming in all of this that these players are just blindsided by the fact that they might lose their scholarship. That’s just not true, unless I’ve horribly misjudged Saban and nearly every other coach (outside the Big-10 apparently /sarcasm). These kids know what the stakes are, and most do their best to meet them, and if they can’t make the grade, that’s a shame. Better luck elsewhere.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
The "you're" there refers to VVeRPennState, btw.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree with the comparison with academic ineligibility.
With all of the resources available to student athletes, academic ineligibility is almost always a result of the student not putting in the necessary effort. That simply isn’t the case with a player’s football skills.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
That is just simply not true.
It’s tough to maintain a 3.5 GPA in certain degrees. I lost a scholarship one time, and it had little to do with not putting in effort – I worked hard and just didn’t make the grades. It happens a lot, and guess what, the same thing happens to them as happens to students who goof off all semester.
Why is it not the case with a player’s football skills? Some goof off, and don’t make the cut, so they lose a scholarship. I know of no one who has a problem with this (it parallels part A, above). The parallel to part B is that if a player works hard, but can’t make the cut, they might be asked to take their skills elsewhere. How is it an invalid comparison?
Also, one thing you’re forgetting in all of this, is that if a student gets to come to a university for a year or two, even if they lose their scholarship after that, they still are getting thousands of dollars worth of free education, room, and board just to go out and play football each afternoon and weekend – how is this bad?
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
I think he's making an analogy to academic scholarships.
People on academic scholarships can lose them if they don’t maintain a high enough GPA.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
My fault then.
I thought he was comparing it to a student athlete becoming academically ineligible.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
I’m in the extreme minority here, but you’ll find that I’ve decried the falling moral standards at both Alabama and Auburn both academically and athletically. Here in Alabama, schools have complete and total immunity to any laws, known often as Eleventh Amendment Immunity. The schools here receive public funds, and as such, are not liable to most laws the average citizen must abide by. These include contract laws. While the players in college sports are required to obey the contracts they sign, the schools know that a contract is worthless as they’re not liable legally to it. Schools here know that they must violate a constitutional right before they have any liability.
At Alabama, only a few years ago, it was easy to obtain the SSN, address, passwords, user accounts, etc. of every enrolled student. When I brought this up to the administration, the fixes I recommended were shot down as too time-consuming to implement, and the school hid behind their immunity to continue breaking privacy laws.
At Auburn, my experience was even worse, including the accidental reallocation of my wife’s scholarship, and the losing of her paperwork. When we brought our copies, it didn’t matter – the funds had already been reallocated, so the school again hid behind their immunity.
The problem of oversigning isn’t a college athletic problem – it’s a problem in the attitude of public colleges everywhere. I can’t help but applaud Penn State for pushing the morals and ethics that are so lacking here in ALL Alabama schools I have experience with. This is the sole reason why your coach, Bryant, and Saban have earned my respect – they have been making sure that players get EXACTLY what they are promised, DESPITE the problems that may be in their school’s bureaucracy. Every player is presented with the complete details of what will and can happen.
All this talk about scholarships being a guarantee for even a semester is nonsense and assumes that the school has to abide by their contracts. This is nonsense. These “contracts” that the school signs off on are only as good as the funds they have on-hand, and the people willing to enforce them. Saban and Paterno both have shown great character in this regard, making sure injured players continue to be able to finance their education, and genuinely caring about their students’ future. As long as this is the case, I’m not too worried, but I’ve seen what easily can happen.
Oh, and ignore Todd. He’s an arrogant dictator who would will probably delete my post or even revise it to say something like, “+1 for Todd” ;). We love Dear Leader, but only because we’re required to.
by squinky86 on Sep 8, 2010 9:40 AM CDT reply actions 6 recs
All this talk about scholarships being a guarantee for even a semester is nonsense and assumes that the school has to abide by their contracts.
No one is saying that a school is legally obligated to make good on a promised scholarship – I guess if they want to reallocate funds they can do so, and cheat any deserving student out of an education. But if that is done, we have a much bigger problem than oversigning – and we may, but that is a total side issue. The issue is: are the players treated fairly, oversigning or not, and as you stated:
This is the sole reason why your coach, Bryant, and Saban have earned my respect – they have been making sure that players get EXACTLY what they are promised
I appreciate your point about the disintegrating ethics of the nation’s and Alabama’s schools, and I hope it’s fixed, but as far as the Alabama program is concerned, a scholarship IS a guarantee – for a year – and the commitment is honored. Just because they may not be elsewhere does not invalidate that point.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Your statement that the scholarship is a guarantee is erroneous. Please see the following cases local to Alabama:
Haley v. Barbour County set the framework in 2004 for further abuses. Louviere v. Mobile County Board of Education (1995) stated, “County boards of education, as local agencies of the State, enjoy [§ 14] immunity.” In 2009 and 2010, the Alabama courts have thrown out two further cases stating that boards of education and college systems that receive state funding are “immune from tort actions.”
If the school doesn’t want to pay your scholarship, they don’t have to, and you can do NOTHING about it. What keeps them paying are the boosters, coaches, and supporters who can bring the ethical level of their school above what is required or protected by law. For this, we can thank people like JoePa, The Bear, and now, Coach Saban, along with the ethical staff that has been put into place.
Again – a contract with a school is meaningless once the school decides that it’s meaningless.
What I'm saying is
as far as the Alabama football program is concerned, it is a guarantee regardless of whether the institution honors its commitments elsewhere. No, it may not be legally binding, but Saban honors his commitments regardless of legalities or institutional ethical shortcomings. So, your whole point (relative to this discussion alone, not necessarily one on university ethics as a whole) is just semantics. You fixated on the word “guarantee,” brought your personal issues into the discussion (which I am genuinely sorry about, by the way), and made an issue where there did not need to be one.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
And you are correct; I should have left personal experience out of this. I apologize. I just want people to be aware of where I’m coming from in complaining about the lack of ethics in our college system.
i appreciated your personal anecdot
as i think you’ve alluded to this in previous posts but i was always unsure. come to think of it. that kinda garbage goes on in arizona and kentucky too. from what i remember it wasn’t as bad at Louisville as it is at ASU and the Community Colleges that feed into ASU. i’ve had several friends tell me similar stories about being told they didn’t qualify for aid when they’d previously confirmed they had everything in order to start the year. only to find out a few months later, after they’re not in school that semester, that it was certainly just an administrative error at the school. the students recourse? “apply for next years FAFSA now….”
and you make a great point about what the schools themselves would do to the students were it not for coaches who’ll stand up for the kid and ensure he gets a fair deal. (kind of related, Steve Spurrier’s argument with Andrew Sorenson comes to mind. Spurrier cleared soem kids to play with the school. upon signing and arriving to campus the school reniged. Spurrier was pissed and rightly so. the kids got screwed)
The beauty of The Process is that you have never arrived, so you get to continue being perpetually awesome... -Espyonage
by tempebamafan on Sep 8, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Same kinds of problems in Virginia
Kids go to community colleges being told they will be able to transfer and then when it comes time to do so, Oh wait, you don’t have the right classes!
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
That's cool.
I seriously hate what happened to you – I hope you could see that. I live in Puerto Rico, and if you think things are unethical in the States…well, just give government or businesses here a try for a while. It’s not any fun to get cheated out of anything by a corrupt system, especially an education, and I sincerely hope things worked out okay for you and your wife.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Here in Alabama, schools have complete and total immunity to any laws, known often as Eleventh Amendment Immunity.
I don’t know if you just oversimplified it or if you don’t really understand the 11th Amendment. What really helps out the university is the state constitution’s sovereign immunity clause and a few favorable Alabama Supreme Court decisions.
But the State (University) cannot just break contracts at will. There is an adminstrative body that hears breach of contract and other claims against the state so they really cannot break any laws they want.
And, they don’t get immunity, 11th Amendment or otherwise, because they accept public funds, they get it because they are an arm of the state. Samford, Miles, Faulkner, etc. all accept public funds (from both the federal at state governments) but they aren’t afforded the same immunity that the University of Alabama has.
Please see my reply to RememberTheRoseBowl above. The Alabama Supreme Court has ruled that the universities in Alabama receive full immunity. The Alabama Constitution explicitly gives boards of education, colleges, etc. full immunity in a much more blatant way than the US Constitution does. Since the question was originally focused on Penn State vs. Alabama, I tried to keep it in general federal laws. The laws (section 14 immunity) for Alabama are referenced above, along with the court cases supporting them. I can’t recall the US Supreme Court case that upheld these Alabama laws, but it used the 11th Amendment to rule these laws constitutional.
Section 14 of the Alabama Constitution states: “That the State of Alabama shall never be made a defendant in any court of law or equity.” (emphasis added). The courts have determined that state universities, e.g., the University of Alabama, community colleges, and local and county boards of education are state agencies, i.e., “the State of Alabama”. However, I cannot find a single case that says that any college, including private colleges and universities, is a state agency solely because it accepts state funds. In fact, the Alabama Supreme Court has said that while the receipt of funds from the state is a significant factor in deciding whether an entity is a state agency entitled to sovereign immunity from suit, it is not the sole factor considered in determining if a party is a state agency. Ex parte Troy University, 961 So.2d 105 (Ala.2006). Now, if you can cite a case or two where the courts have extended absolute immunity to private colleges, I will gladly conceed the point.
But, even so, that does not mean the contracts are useless. As I said earlier, you would still have an administrative remedy. Secondofly, you likely could bring an action against CNS, Mal Moore, etc. in their personal capacity. Finally, if the University made it a habit to not honor their contracts, then nobody would contract with them. Could you imagine how hard it would be to recruit if a recruit thought that there’s even a remote chance that they would not honor the scholarship?
Central Alabama Community College v Robinson; December 2009. Whether or not they have full immunity, they are claiming it, and the courts are backing them up: “On appeal, the College and the Consortium argue that State immunity under Art. I, § 14, Ala. Const.1901, also known as sovereign immunity, Ex parte Tirey, 977 So.2d 469, 470 (Ala.2007), acts as a jurisdictional bar in this case.” and “‘The wall of immunity erected by § 14 is nearly impregnable.’ Patterson v. Gladwin Corp., 835 So.2d 137, 142 (Ala.2002)”
Your statements about our administration are wholeheartedly correct. We have to trust the administration, because the law can’t be trusted here in Alabama. As long as we keep hiring good administrators, it’s all good.
Not to carry on this threadjacking longer than necessary, but community colleges are not private. The court has said that community colleges get sovereign immunity. My point is that many private colleges, e.g., Faulkner, Samford, Stillman, etc., get public funds but they are not entitled to SI. The other cases cited by the court in your quote also do not apply; they are a sherrif and the commissioner of ADOR respectively.
It says: “It is undisputed that UAH is a State entity.” One, UAH is a public university. Two, even if it was private but claimed to be a state agency, if the other party (for whatever reason) decided to not argue against that point, it could not be addressed on appeal. I still have not seen a case where simply accepting public funds grants a private entity (university or no) SI. You can keep citing cases with public universities and community colleges but that does not help your argument.
I thought that’s what we were talking about – UA, Auburn, and Penn State are all public universities… I think we got our wires crossed somewhere.
Yeah it sounds like it. UA definitely has SI but it’s not because it accepts public funds, it’s because it is an arm of the State. I like arguing a completely separate issue than what my opponent is.
by Bumpjon on Sep 8, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh yes, and one I watched carefully since 2007 because UAH is where my degrees are from:
Off Campus v. UAH May, 2009
“It is undisputed that UAH is a State entity. Off Campus’s original complaint named UAH as the sole defendant. Under Harbert and pursuant to § 14, UAH was not a proper defendant for Off Campus’s declaratory-judgment action because it is absolutely immune from suit. Accordingly, the trial court lacked jurisdiction to entertain the complaint against UAH.”
Dissent to your dissent
First, here are my anectdotes, so personally, I really feel for you:
1. My ex-wife had the same thing happen to her at Auburn as your wife (since she wouldn’t fuck the department Chair); hence her entering law school in a different jurisdiction to correct those injustices (BTW: she finished 2nd in our class).
2. I had the same experience at UAB while I was trying to earn my Ph.D. The new chair revoked my allegedly guaranteed funding source for reasons unrelated to scholastic progress or academic publication (in fact, I had just won a teaching award). No, it was over the fact that A) I am a broke ass scrub, and B) since that I had a daughter, and was in grad school, with a new baby, without money, he didn’t approve of our ratification of the Medicare system for her insurance needs, and C) combine A and B above.
Those anecdotes aside: Seriously, fuck the rest of the “sovereign immunity” rant.
Every single state, municipality, county, federal entity, or person otherwise privileged to assert a defense given to them under the law will, and should, do so…and they will win. As they should.
That isn’t an Alabama problem, or an Auburn (or even SEC) problem. That is simply a sovereign dictating quite clearly under what and which circumstances it will/can be liable for its mis/malfeasance.
It happens. Shit happens. It’s called life. And, if anyone is holding out hope that somehow it will change, it won’t…it’s called “law”, not “justice” for a very good reason. If you operate under the assumption that the profession (comprised of the privileged), writes the laws (for the benefit of the privileged), and that the same profession also interprets those provisions (also, for the benefit of the privileged), then you can sleep much easier at night.
It’s a stacked deck. Always has been, always will be.
And, my friend, if you think that a State can be bad about asserting the laws it wrote for its own benefit, you should really try to live in a place that does not operate under the rule of law (no matter how illusorily applied here). Think an Indian reservation where there are no separation of powers and judges serve at the whim and will of those whose actions they would attempt to constrain. And, as bad as that is, try to live in a place where the rule of law isn’t even applicable!
Sorry for the rant. Life isn’t fair. Never has been, and I thought that was one of the first lessons we all learned at five years old.
And, again, none of this was personal, just a true observation.
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 9, 2010 1:36 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
whoops....
I did I just give away the fact that I am a big ole’ pinko and resent being an apparatus of “the Man”?
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 9, 2010 1:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Hehe, I actually agree with most of what you said. Yeah, it’s tough, and people get really messed up in the process (…no, a different process…).
That aside, the main point is that you must have integrity when given so much responsibility and freedom. Particularly, I don’t believe UAHuntsville and Auburn are exercising their freedoms in a particularly ethical way. Oh well – they have a constitutional right in this state to do that. If you don’t like it, move. It’s sad, but we’ve got to suck it up.
What I applaud are people like Saban and Paterno who, despite the freedoms given to them to be complete jerks and take advantage of the children put under them, they treat their stewardship with the utmost sanctity. We must always make sure that we put people with such integrity in these positions where abuse can be so rampant.
Lesson learned, debt accumulated, and it’s time to move on with the lessons you’ve learned. By the way – I seriously hope you guys, particularly your children, are doing ok. That’s not a very good way to start out by getting messed up by “the man!”
Spidey said something about “great responsibility” didn’t he?
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 9, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
13 rec's and counting...
must be a lot of haters lurking.
"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted
"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted
I see OSU fans learned how to use the rec button, eh?
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 8, 2010 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Starting the conversation
by introducing “oversigning.com” sets the tone far more than any empty pleas for civil conversation.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 10:04 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
It's probably true.
Oversigning.com does clearly take a hard line approach to the subject which is very anti-oversigning and therefore very critical of Alabama. Do you know of any other site that covers the topic in as much depth? If so, I would gladly check it out.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Quote from oversigning.com
“We’re big GT & Bobby Dodd fans here at oversigning.com.”
Link Here
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
Oversigning.com is great if you want a Big Ten homer that makes up data to suit their arguments.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Sep 8, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m taking it for granted that you guys have already written posts refuting the site in question, would you mind pointing one out for me? TIA.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 8, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
What are your thoughts on QBs getting beheaded by angry DEs?
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 10:19 AM CDT reply actions
As a PSU fan
My initial thoughts are that would set a new precedent for college football and that it would indicate Saban is running a violent, out of control program.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 8, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
News flash: football is a violent game.
And there is nothing “out of control” about Saban
The Process of Champions
it was a joke
"You know, we had a lot of fun tonight. But there's nothing funny about vapor lock! It's the third most common cause of cars stalling. So please, take care of your car and get it checked!" -Joe Namath
Oh c'mon,
what’s a little beheading between friends?
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
OK,
but you have to give the head back.
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Ha!
Yep. When we sacked Miami.
Speaking of over-the-top war metaphors and football, if you haven’t seen this yet it’s a riot: http://www.churchofsaban.com/
Your team
is made up of thieves, tax collectors, and failed haberdashers?
No, that's SJS he's referring to.
It takes a while to pick up on all the references, and one would probably have to be a serious Bama, or at least SEC fan, to figure out what in the hell he’s talking about for half of them.
touche
have a rec. lolz…
The beauty of The Process is that you have never arrived, so you get to continue being perpetually awesome... -Espyonage
by tempebamafan on Sep 8, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
As a Penn State fan
This fanpost disappoints me. Every program has skeletons in their closet, including Penn State. But you don’t go into somebody’s house and open up their closet and say, “Hey, let’s talk about what you got in here.”
It’s an interesting topic to discuss in the offseason, but it’s not appropriate today when these two fine programs are about to meet in a few days.
by BSD on Sep 8, 2010 10:43 AM CDT reply actions 13 recs
Echoed
And the ContranegativeButNoReally device is a fraudulent one. If I say: ‘not to be a dick, but your mom’s ugly,’ guess what? I’m being a dick.
Similarly, you can’t undo the trolliness of this post, or the arrogance of moral superiority contained therein, by simply including ‘but I’m not trying to troll.’
Here’s hoping the rest of us can rep us here better than this.
Until our defense proves otherwise, it should be presumed they will be excellent.
by jtothep on Sep 8, 2010 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
So then my statement “no offense, VVeRPennState, but yeah I think you’re being a little bit of an arrogant elitist” can still be taken with offense? Oh well.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
I think it qualifies as non-fraudulent
Via the Mockery Exception.
Until our defense proves otherwise, it should be presumed they will be excellent.
Sorry you feel that way,
But I don’t see how this is out of line. Maybe these blogs are better left to pure X and O discussions, but I figured that Alabama fans would have a unique viewpoint on this issue and one that would likely be completely counterposed to mine.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree with Mike, it doesn't feel right.
But I will guiltily admit that I have enjoyed hearing the Alabama perspective on the topic. I hear a lot of 1 sided discussions on this topic, but I am tending to agree with the majority here that it is all in how you appreach it. If kids are told up front about the nature of the scholarship, and everyone knows what they are in for, who are we to criticize 2 consenting adults?
So I’m sorry for this post and the way it comes across, but I am grateful for the perspective and balance it has brought me on the subject.
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Your first point is why I posted this.
I think it is an interesting discussion were you generally only hear from the anti-oversigning people. I wanted to hear what Alabama fans have to say about it.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm willing to take you at your word
You have to understand that we have had similar talks with other fanbases that quickly degenerated into trolling, and bringing out oversigning.com and talking about PSU’s practice as more ethical set off some alarm bells.
But I will say you (and other PSU fans) have been pretty classy through this whole thread which could easily have gone to hell very quickly, and have been very willing to listen to our side of this rather than just spout out a bunch of stuff from the site.
"You know, we had a lot of fun tonight. But there's nothing funny about vapor lock! It's the third most common cause of cars stalling. So please, take care of your car and get it checked!" -Joe Namath
who are we to criticize 2 consenting adults?
That’s what she said. Wait, no, that’s what I told her other people should say.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
Thats what she said...or he said! I'm not homophobic
I voted for Kleph and all I got was this lousy t-shirt
by BamaReturns07 on Sep 8, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Intaught?
Word check!
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
Huh?
Not that there’s anything wrong with that. You know, Seinfeld, where everyone thinks they’re gay?? No?
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah I got it
Was reading it like WYSIWYG (Wissy Wig?). Um…nevermind lol
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
Wissy Wig
I actually like it. If I can manage to assign it some meaning, I think I might keep it around.
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
What you see is what you get
90’s term? Ok, have I outed myself in the age department? It’s ok, time to go to the cafeteria for some apple sauce!
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
mmmmm..
applesauce
"The North isn't a place. It's just a direction out of the South."
--Roy Blount, Jr.
by animalcracker on Sep 8, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I am not a professional writer.
So I may not be able to clearly present my tone purely through the written word. But I have a feeling I would be getting even more trolling responses if I didn’t include that disclaimer.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Very few of us are professional writers BUT that isn't a skill of a professional writer
I voted for Kleph and all I got was this lousy t-shirt
by BamaReturns07 on Sep 8, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions
i'm just curious why
you still dont seem to know where you stand on this issue. Does Alabama oversign and cause players harm? if so, example please. and you might want to send that example to the oversigning.com folks, cause they keep spinnin their wheels without anything. so, put up, or shut up. you’re just posting to see your writing on the net, or you actually have an example and are going to be the first person to blow the lid off this whole thing (brian cook will be pleased)
The beauty of The Process is that you have never arrived, so you get to continue being perpetually awesome... -Espyonage
by tempebamafan on Sep 8, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
i dont mind this discussion
Bama does not engage in any unethical practices related to signing or “over signing” so feel free to talk about it all you like. the people making this argument have been doing so for years, and have for the entire time, failed to produce a single example of a player who was harmed or wronged by the so-called oversigning Saban purportedly engages in. Simply put, the oversigning.com crowd has been pissing and moaning for 3 seasons without yet producing a single example to confirm or add validity to their claims.
The beauty of The Process is that you have never arrived, so you get to continue being perpetually awesome... -Espyonage
by tempebamafan on Sep 8, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Call me a turncoat but...
I just rec’d a PSU fan’s post.
We all know trolling when we see it.
U of U? Never...lol
Loyalty is trumped
by Truth
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
First of all
I don’t think we have lied to any player. If we did, it would be in the papers, and it is not.
Secondly, Saban has tried to make sure all the guys that commit to Bama get a fair deal. I don’t think he has taken a scholarship away from one player. Some transfered becasue they weren’t going to play. Some were hurt and got a medical scholarship but they still got to go to college. Some broke team rules and were dismissed, but if you break the rules I don’t think you have a leg on which to stand. Some had to wait as in the grey shirts.
Third: All scholarships are year to year and that is not just in sports. My daughter is at UA and she has 3 scholarships right now. Guess what, if she doesn’t make the grades she loses the money. She knew that going into the situation. Players know going in that a lot is expected of them. If anything I think the atheletic department is not as strict as the academic side in this scholarship thing. If they were strict I think we would have cut Earl Alexander a long time ago.
Finally: Your whole tone smacks of upper crust superiority. We haven’t broken any rules or been unfair to kids so you worry about Penn St. and we will worry about Alabama.
Aright?
As much as I hate Auburn I hate Tenn. that much more.
A'IGHT?!?
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
In all of the over signing discussions
I think the fact that scholarships are awarded for a one year period is often over looked or simply ignored. I always ask if the student athletes are getting as screwed over as the over signing critics like to think, where is the outrage from the student athlete?
Anyone else bothered by the Penn State people continuing to cite their lack of NCAA violations as grounds for being ethically superior? Isn’t that like having Hitler vouch for your integrity?
by squinky86 on Sep 8, 2010 11:31 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Throwing out the Hitler card. Bold move.
Before it gets misintrepreted by any quick scanning PSU fans, note that the NCAA is Hitler in this analogy.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
No way, I saw it!
Bama fans think JoePa is Hitler. News at 11.
Until our defense proves otherwise, it should be presumed they will be excellent.
Can I change the subject.
What is with all the fanposts from KD1988? That person just keeps coming here and trying to sell a different Tide website?
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
He has written
books on Bama and Coach Bryant. Good stuff!
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
Gotcha.
I thought it was just constant annoying spam. Maybe I’ll have to wander over after I watch my JoeBear recording.
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
and the NCAA
has had it’s eye on Canada for some time now! :D
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
...for annexation
for those that did not get the Hitler reference.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
Who wants Canada?
UH-OH- now I’ve done it.
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
The country with the national anthem that goes “oh : / canada”
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
Seriously, though
Canada has Canadians? Shouldn’t Canadia have Canadians? Or Canada have Canadans?
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Good point
Just like people who live in Florida.
They are New Yorkers :D
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
by 13thBama on Sep 8, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
No.
Keep it family-friendly.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry, we'll stop talking about Florida
"You know, we had a lot of fun tonight. But there's nothing funny about vapor lock! It's the third most common cause of cars stalling. So please, take care of your car and get it checked!" -Joe Namath
I see the topic is changing for PSU fans already
for the past 2 weeks they have been on BSD, saying “when we upset Bama will it be the biggest upset of all time?”, “Where will this rank among our all-time greatest upsets?”, Yeah Ingram is out and our chances for the greatest upset of all time is all but assured", and “Trent who?”. Now it appears as thought the post game meme has been set just in case we beat the ever loving snot out them….“but our program is clean as a whistle”
Roll Tide!
Oh this will be good
//Eating Popcorn//
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin
MMonetwo
I have quite enjoyed your participation on BSD. It has been a day or so since you came around, where you been? Everything ok?
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Starting to get a little tight
There is a lot of pressure being the fan of the defending national champs and sometimes it makes me say things I would ordinarily say.lol. BSD is a cool site and I have enjoyed the conversation. For the most part everyone over there is cool but I know exactly where this guy is going with this post.
Roll Tide!
by mobilematt12 on Sep 8, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Got it,
I cannot blame you for getting worked up over this post. I thought your comment was a bit uncharacteristic (after all, you accused US of underselling our team), but I too am a passionate fan and get where it was coming from.
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Especially in your own house, I might add.
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Fact is this is a great match up
ESPN has been non stop about this one and it is getting more hype then the Miami Ohio State game. Something about Penn State and Alabama in an old school match up that has a lot of history for two teams that in the scope of things really haven’t played that often. I actually am very fond of the PSU program and Joepa. Just like I was fond of Bowden and FSU. Gotta admire a couple of guys who build something from the ground up like that. I will be back on BSD at some point. Leaving tomorrow and heading for T-Town so win or lose I will be back on BSD to wish the Lions well for the rest of the year. Obviously I hope Bama wins but I realize this will be a hard fought game.
Roll Tide!
by mobilematt12 on Sep 8, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Since you will be there in person,
let me leave you with the name of something to watch, just for good ole fun since we’re talking old school football. Michael Zordich, our backup FB might get some decent playing time. If he plays, listen for the sounds of his collisions with your mammoth LBs. I hear that in person the sounds of his blocks are thudering. Since I hear similar reports on Bama LBs, I’m expecting some sort of hole to open in the earth.
He has been dinged up so I hope he sees the field. Word is he gave 3 PSU defenders concussions in summer practice, and may have knocked himself a bit silly.
Safe travels!
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 8, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks and enjoy the day
I’m on the 40 yard line and two rows up on the lower level.
Roll Tide!
by mobilematt12 on Sep 8, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I’d like to see one serious post from BSD that resembled anything along the lines of “Penn State’s upset is all but assured.”
I would be glad to eat crow.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 8, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course there was a bit of hyperbole
in my post. However, your guy comes over here and plays the ethical card in our house. “oversigning” is a Big Ten rule. We are not in the Big Ten.
Roll Tide!
by mobilematt12 on Sep 8, 2010 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
don't they have a specific rule about "oversigning?"
People can bitch about Saban all they want but he is doing what he is allowed to do. Those players that get conditional scholarships know exactly what is happening. I read that website he posted and the Alabama list is a joke. Star Jackson left because he was never going to play. Alfy Hill was screwed and jerked around so bad by the NCAA it isn’t even funny. What the hell is the “spirit of the rule” anyway? It is either against the rules or it isn’t.
Roll Tide!
I don't know about you guys
but it’s getting tougher for me to hate PSU fans.
Looking forward to a great game.
Just read the first two lines of this article
http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2010/8/31/1660807/mark-ingram-suffers-knee-injury
to make it easier:
It’s never good news to hear that a player has been injured, but this will certainly make Nittany Lion fans choke back a little smile. Alabama’s reigning Heisman-Trophy-winning running back suffered a knee injury in practice on Monday.
Don’t read the comments though as the PSU fans did redeem themselves with a healthy serving of class
The Process of Champions
Don’t read the comments though as the PSU fans did redeem themselves with a healthy serving of class
bastards…
The beauty of The Process is that you have never arrived, so you get to continue being perpetually awesome... -Espyonage
by tempebamafan on Sep 8, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
In his defense
Would Alabama fans have been just bummed, dude if Gino Toretta had been injured in 1992?
Anyway, Fugi’s a good guy, but everyone makes mistakes.
by ReadingRambler on Sep 8, 2010 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
No...
SEC defenses = mocking Heisman winners for 80 years.
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 8, 2010 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
The Big Ten has enacted rules that force its teams to endure a competitive disadvantage because they’re afraid that their coaches won’t be upfront with players or won’t be able to effectively manage the numbers game involved.
That’s fine — it’s their conference to do with as they please, the really slimy thing, though, is to then try to guilt and harass others into following those rules as well so that they don’t have a disadvantage any more.
The recruiting market will correct for mistakes like Miles, as well as for coaches that make promises they don’t keep.
Football players don’t deserve irrevocable scholarships. If you are a student and you don’t perform in the classroom, you lose your scholarship. If you’re a football player, and you don’t perform on the field, you should be prepared to lose your scholarship. That’s life.
I'm wrong all the time.
When Alabama (or any other school) starts breaking the rules established — and agreed upon — by the NCAA’s member institutions, I’ll agree that there was something wrong. So far, though, it looks as though Alabama is abiding by the recruiting rules with regard to signing.
It actually makes me wonder if schools in the Big Ten actually follow the spirit of the rule that forbids multi-year scholarship promises. Think a coach up there has ever said: “Yeah, [SEC School] could sign 30 kids next year, then what happens to your scholarship? We’re not allowed to offer it to anyone else, according to Big Ten rules.”
I'm wrong all the time.
Cad.
How dare you question the unflinching morals or our northern brethren?
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 8, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
The Big Ten has enacted rules that force its teams to endure a competitive disadvantage because they’re afraid that their coaches won’t be upfront with players or won’t be able to effectively manage the numbers game involved.
Do they have rules against any oversigning? I still think it was dumb of the SEC to pass it’s own rule limiting it to 28 signees. If they wanted to pass a national rule, that’s fine but I don’t see why the SEC should put itself at a disadvantage.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
Yes, it is against Big 10 rules.
From everone’s favorite website.
SEC implemented a rule in 2010 that limits the number of players signed to 28, but it lacks the stipulation that coaches be required to prove where a scholarship is coming from before the letter of intent is signed and that no one from the returning class of players be pushed out for the sole purpose of bringing in better recruits. Nor does the SEC rule stipulate that the extra players signed must qualify academically, all things that the Big 10 rules, that have been in place FOR DECADES, provide for.
by VVeRPennState on Sep 8, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Nor does the SEC rule stipulate that the extra players signed must qualify academically
You have a rule that all players you sign MUST qualify academically?? What happens if they don’t? That’s just dumb. The fact that a certain number won’t qualify academically (and that a few will opt for MLB instead of CFB) is the whole reason for signing mre than 25.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
False. You can actually get a job parking cars.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Sep 8, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
It means they don’t allow partial qualifiers, I think. Of course the SEC doesn’t either iirc. That’s why Alfy Hill is able to go to ECU when Alabama couldn’t bring him in.
"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted
Ours have to qualify before they can enroll,
but not before they sign. He makes it sound like they can’t sign anyone that doesn’t qualify. You’d have to push signing day back to August to really make that work.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
as well as for coaches that make promises they don’t keep.
Explain Kiffin then?!
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 8, 2010 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions
We at PSU are so committed against oversigning.
That our 2011 recruiting class has only 4 players.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/bwi/football/recruiting/commitments/2011
angrily sobs and bangs head on table
Bloggin' at joepasdoghouse.com
by Cairo on Sep 8, 2010 1:42 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
well, we all know
that you gotta jump on those 2 stars with offers from Bucknell and Delaware ;)
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 8, 2010 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe the purpose of oversigning is to...
1) Make sure you get yours. Theres nothing like signing 22-players when your allowed 24. Sometimes kids change their mind at the last minute and the schools get screwed for having faith in an 18-year olds verbal commitment.
.
2) Academic casualties. every year there are one or two kids who don’t make the grades. Sometimes the NCAA clearinghouse screws you and well see Alfy Hill. Had Saban not had a grayshirt TE waiting in the wings, guess what Bama undersigns for 2009.
.
Oversigning is really the improper word here. Maybe we should call it over recruiting. The reason is you can’t sign more players to a scholly than the NCAA allows, so, basically no-one oversigns they over recruit. I feel it’s a necessary evil in order to insure you don’t end up like Auburn did in 2008-2009. Call it evil, crooked or unfair. I call it smart business. Some people just hate success, especially when it’s not theirs. Stay classy PSU
Hold my beer and watch this.
If the Big 10 did
over sign it would change nothing because all they would do is sign some 2 stars who would probably walk on anyway. The amount of raw talent up north, although a large population base, is lacking. And, who from the south really wants to play at Minnesota or Iowa?
Minnesota High School Football- now there is a lot of talent there.
As much as I hate Auburn I hate Tenn. that much more.
This is a somewhat silly argument. Kids cross state lines to play football, you know.
I'm wrong all the time.
What they really need...
…is a rule against sweater vests….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Sep 10, 2010 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
By B10 rules,
I am required to rec that.
by PSUinBOSSton on Sep 10, 2010 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah.
But how many kids from Alabama, Miss, La and even Fla show up on Minnesota’s roster year in and year out.
My point is that in general you recruit in your area. If Big 10 country is not flush with talent (which I believe it is not) then they don’t need to over sign since they can sign everybody decent in 20-25 signees.
In other words Nick Saban would not “over sign” if all he was doing was adding a bunch of 2 stars who would never see the field. He might offer a large number of athletes because all he offers can play, even the grey shirts. (Example is JPW, who not a Saban recruit, was a grey shirt that ended up being a starting qb for 3 years.)
As much as I hate Auburn I hate Tenn. that much more.
This is absurd
You always want the full compliment. If you cant get studs in a given year, you may not get them the next year. Unless there is a freakishly large graduating class (and probably not even then), it just don’t work like that. If nothing else you want to have the best practices and preparation that you can have. Hate to bring up USC, but remember the announcers mentioning Kiffin deciding to end full contact practices for depth concerns? How do you think it will be in a year or two, especially for what it costs to walk on for someone that doesn’t have an academic scholarship?
Er, Mr. Payne. Sir. You know every second that you could let us out early would really increase our chances of survival.
It's like our sergeant told us before one trip into the jungle.
Men!
Fifty of you are leaving on a mission. Twenty-five of you ain't coming back.
by otisnixon'sparty on Sep 10, 2010 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, I count 23 players from the South and California on the Golden Gophers roster.
Bloggin' at joepasdoghouse.com
I stand corrected.
Minnesota does have lot of Texas and Cal guys and some Florida guys. So, maybe the Big 10 could pull in more talent if they could over sign.
Well, too bad for them. But Alabama is not breaking a rule nor are they trashing players.
As much as I hate Auburn I hate Tenn. that much more.
Not to pick a point
There are regions that are more competitive than others, but competition is a big factor too. Everyone recruits in Florida: there are now four BCS schools in the state, three FBS schools, and a number of other schools from the SEC and ACC that have established recruiting pipelines for years.
If you were Penn State, would you go after the 12 five star kids in Florida knowing there’s a less than 10% you’ll get it, or would you go after the 4 five star kids in Pennsylvania knowing you have a 50% chance of getting them?
If Penn State can hold serve in Pennsylvania, grab the best talent in the Northeast, and dominate in its traditional recruiting base in Maryland and the Virginia tidewater region they should be OK.
In spite of their Southern recruiting approach, Minnesota has a 6-18 conference record under Brewster and is considered to be the worst team in the Big Ten right now. Iowa, Penn State, Ohio State, and Wisconsin are at the top of the conference lists, and all won bowls last year against teams from the South.
In the end, what matters is the development of talent and the appropriate schemes to best exploit that talent.
Bloggin' at joepasdoghouse.com
LOL @ and all won bowls last year against teams from the South.
You made sure to sneak that jab in.
FEAR THE SPEAR!!!!!!!!!
there are 7 FBS schools in Florida
Er, Mr. Payne. Sir. You know every second that you could let us out early would really increase our chances of survival.
It's like our sergeant told us before one trip into the jungle.
Men!
Fifty of you are leaving on a mission. Twenty-five of you ain't coming back.
by otisnixon'sparty on Sep 10, 2010 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions
But only 3 of them are BS schools....
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Sep 10, 2010 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions
um not sure what you mean by bs
is you mean bowl subdivision then no 7 of them are if you mean bullshit then well thats quite a discussion
Er, Mr. Payne. Sir. You know every second that you could let us out early would really increase our chances of survival.
It's like our sergeant told us before one trip into the jungle.
Men!
Fifty of you are leaving on a mission. Twenty-five of you ain't coming back.
by otisnixon'sparty on Sep 10, 2010 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Bull$hit....
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Sep 10, 2010 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah after seeing a few more
of your posts i realized that wasnt a typo or idiocy ill know better now
Er, Mr. Payne. Sir. You know every second that you could let us out early would really increase our chances of survival.
It's like our sergeant told us before one trip into the jungle.
Men!
Fifty of you are leaving on a mission. Twenty-five of you ain't coming back.
by otisnixon'sparty on Sep 10, 2010 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions
No one mentioned Ole Miss yet?
If you want to see the real problem, and why the SEC invoked the “Houston Nutt” rule, look at the place where it was a powder keg waiting to go off. Saban, as mentioned, is meticulous and careful about this. Miles is a little more relaxed, which means that occasionally he is going to run the risk of one player getting surprised, but he is hardly abusive with signing. But if Nutt was allowed to keep committing to +7-10 over the limit every year, knowing that he was going after a large number of likely academic casualties, eventually a bunch were going to qualify against expectations. Major fiasco waiting to happen.
I think the current SEC rule is probably the correct way to go. Leave some room for discretion, but don’t let Nutt run wild. That way, people on the bubble can be helped out by coaches willing to do due diligence.
I just think we should've pushed for it to be a national rule,
but not restricted ourselves when other conferences aren’t.
In the meantime, if Nutt creates a fiasco, then let him deal with the consequences.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
Depends on why the rule exists
Maybe 28 is the wrong limit. Maybe 30 makes more sense. Or whatever. All I’m sure of is that a hard limit of 25 matching the scholarships is unnecessarily restrictive, and if a coach is expecting 10 out of 35 to not qualify, then something is completely screwed up with their recruiting. If it was only Nutt dealing with the consequences, then I’d be all for letting him have enough rope.
However, I think the rule is more about the SEC protecting the brand, than anything else. The last thing we need is the NCAA imposing a hard limit (i.e. no oversigning whatsoever) because some coaches can’t control themselves.
by Steven Mitchell on Sep 8, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t understand why we need another rule to help coaches not break the original rule. All that does is prevent coaches who know what they’re doing from maximizing their returns.
Maybe we need more disclosure — a listing of every player to whom a school has offered a scholarship for the players.
There’s no rule against revoking scholarships, there’s no rule against grayshirting. These types types of rule suggestions are just ways to try to enforce rules against those things without actually doing it.
I'm wrong all the time.
It is unethical for a coach
to not do everything he can, within the rules, to help his team win.
I know,
it feels like the off season, huh?
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 8, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
ahh shucks...
and this thread had so much potential.
Arguing about such a pointless subject is a waste of our time. The last time i checked we have a game being played in a few days that actually means something. I say we close this thread and move on to things that matter….Like which university has the hotter girls?
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
I hear they got tons of women at Auburn
just not a lot of ’em.
Bloggin' at joepasdoghouse.com
by Cairo on Sep 8, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
thats why my
brother married such a fat….
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
let's talk some more about your sister-in-law
A/S/L…
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 8, 2010 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
fucking A that's funny.......
have another rec sir……you’re gonna fit in just fine here……..
Really
I feel that, given the title of the thread, things could have gone much, much worse. The PSU fans have been very very classy – I look forward to the matchup on Saturday.
Anyway, just don’t tell any Michigan fans about this thread.
"You know, we had a lot of fun tonight. But there's nothing funny about vapor lock! It's the third most common cause of cars stalling. So please, take care of your car and get it checked!" -Joe Namath
"things could have gone much, much worse"
i think thats what Bammer was referring to when he said it “had potential”.
now i’m off to BSD to piss on someone’s rug…
The beauty of The Process is that you have never arrived, so you get to continue being perpetually awesome... -Espyonage
oic
"You know, we had a lot of fun tonight. But there's nothing funny about vapor lock! It's the third most common cause of cars stalling. So please, take care of your car and get it checked!" -Joe Namath
exactly...
i didn’t quite feel the hate i was hoping for…
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
Obviously...
…you’re not a golfer….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Sep 10, 2010 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Easy call on the hottest chicks!
trashy good? LSU
trashy trashy? ASU
Not second date material, but you’d brag to your friends? Florida
For those of us who like a bit of flava? UCLA or Hawaii
For those who like some cushioning? Iowa/Iowa State
Can match you drink for drink? Alabama/Georgia/Wisconsin
Way out of your league, let’s you know it, but will still marry a paunchy douchetard Fratboy who has to go to B school or law school to take over daddy’s business? Texas and/or Ole Miss
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 8, 2010 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions
That whole site is an OSU whine fest
b/c they can’t fucking compete. Why don’t they just start a web site www.SECteamsplayintheirbackyardswhereitsbeautifulinJanrathertthangotofuckingcleveland.com
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 8, 2010 5:00 PM CDT reply actions
aw man..
i was hoping that was a real site.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
i know...
its the damndest thing.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
Worked for me.
Has naked pictures of Betty White.
On an unrelated note, I’m going to be AFK for a little bit….
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
dont be a fool
wrap your tool.
Alabama football....The only addiction God wholeheartedly approves of..
Wrap the monitor is more like it...
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 8, 2010 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions
25/85
As long as the 25/85 number is followed and the coach tells the kid whatis happening, there is no problem with oversigning. Yes, Nutt at OleMiss signed 30 something players last year or the year before but only25 scholarshiped players enrolled. The reports I read said all thoseother kids knew they did not have the grades to enroll at Ole Miss butNutt gave them a chance to say “I signed with a D1 school” before theywent off to JUCO or prep school. And of course, that gives him a betterchance to sign those kids again. As far as what I know of Coach Sabanoversigning and greyshirting players, he tells them what is happeningand is upfront with them. Some kids want to play for him and/or Alabamaso much, they will wait till the following January to enroll. I do notknow for a fact but I think that is what happened with TE HarrsionJones this summer. He had to move out of the dorm when Blake Sims goteligible but then moved back when Alfy Hill got screwed by the NCAA andhis scholarship became availble. And I am pretty sure some kids “withmoney” actually pay their own way and let someone else use thatscholarship slot. Some people in the media make this a big deal when it is not. Jones’family could afford to pay the out-of-state tuition (as evidenced by thefact that he moved out of the dorm and into a condo his family had inT-town), he is a Alabama legacy and his brother is a starting OL, so Ithink he was informed of this at some point during his recruitment. “Elitist” is how I would descibe people with an attitude towardsoversigning. So far, the complainers have been from Big 10 (plus 2)country and media people trying to stir the pot so they have somethingto write about. When Saban went to teleconferncing to talk to kids whenhead coaches were banned from off-campus recruiting (aka the Sabanrule), some people and coaches even thought that was against the rules.If they had been inclined to read the rulebook, they would have known itwas OK. Honestly, I can only speak for myself but I see a lot of thiswhining against oversigning as coming from schools that think they are"elitist" and have always looked down on any school south of theMason-Dixon line.
I think I speak for the drunkards and/or wit-mongers amongst us...
But, I really hope y’all (youse guys?) come back for some open threads when your team isn’t play. We missed you for the second half of the VT-BSU game…
For unrepentant Yankees, you’re good people.
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 8, 2010 11:29 PM CDT reply actions
Bama has 9-seniors on this years team...
We have several juniors who will go pro. I’m prolly wrong but I count 6 juniors who’ll go.
.
Ingram
Barron
Hightower
Dareus
Jones
Upshaw
.
So Bama is loosing a total of 15 scholarship players. (?) So far the 2011 recruiting class has 18 players commited and several offers still pending to the likes of Cyrus Kuondjio, Jadeveon Clowney etc. From the looks of it Bama has already oversigned.
Hold my beer and watch this.
Nobody’s a “lock” until they have the offer in hand. Anything could happen between now and then. Academic ineligibility, injury, arrest, etc.
I'm wrong all the time.
And was this before or after Mike Marrow decided to transfer yesterday? Shit happens.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
Hence the ultimate foolishness of armchair coaches trying to figure out who’s got a scholarship and who doesn’t.
I'm wrong all the time.
I don't have one...honest!
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Sep 10, 2010 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe
go for a little more “silent” and a little less “boob” next time, eh?
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 9, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Just kidding, man
Side note: probably the last time you see me requesting “a little less boob”.
Some people say "If you can't beat them, join them". I say "If you can't beat them, beat them", because they will be expecting you to join them, so you will have the element of surprise.
by BamaHadMeAtHello on Sep 9, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I was gonna say...
Personally I like boob.
If I'm wearing a turban, it means Auburn is playing Iraq.
Makes me wish I had three hands.
It's not what you've done but what you are doing that matters.
And the roses in this grand ol' stadium are once again Crimson. - Eli Gold, CTSN Broadcast of the BCS Championship Game at the Rose Bowl, 1-7-2010
by AlabamaJammer on Sep 9, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
unless, of course, you’re shopping for asian brides?
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 9, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I got the nickname "boob" when I was in 8th grade.
I was the first of my friends to get my hands on some and my friends slated me as Mr. boob. Still to this day my old friends refer to me as such. I’ve noticed several of ya’ll stabbing at my username. I know it begs it right?
Hold my beer and watch this.
I hate this thread.
We need a good silly hate week thread already.
"If wanting to win is a fault, as some of my critics seem to insist, then I plead guilty. I like to win. I know no other way. It's in my blood."- The Bear
yesplz
I really have to wonder where some of the rec’s have been coming from for fanposts.
"You know, we had a lot of fun tonight. But there's nothing funny about vapor lock! It's the third most common cause of cars stalling. So please, take care of your car and get it checked!" -Joe Namath
OSU trolls
"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero
by Stuck in the Plains on Sep 9, 2010 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions
On Topic . . .
Oversigning?
Every coach, looking at his recruits, should sign precisely what he has to offer. However, every coach, looking at his kids, also knows whom is most likely to fall out. If he has one who he knows will not pass the grade issue? He might offer the kid to coyly let him know he’s wanted if gets through JC. I’d let one or two slide.
But th eway Nutt and Miles oversign, try them on the field, then make cuts like a pro team after evaluating talent? That’s crooked as hell and should be sanctioned to my mind. Nutt made it a calling card. It should get enough press that no kid wants to play for him, that might end that shit.
Meh
The kids get their scholarships.
I think kids that get cut should be allowed to play immediately at another school without sitting out, just to make it fair, but demanding that a team keep kids that don’t pull their own weight is kinda silly.
I'm wrong all the time.
by PeteHoliday on Sep 10, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Cutting kids
Who don’t pull their own weight is one thing. Having kids on campus and ditching them for what you perceive to better talent when they did everything you asked is quite another. What I described doe snot fall under the “kid who is screwing up” category.
Yes, kids need to do what is asked of them. But you can’t sign a guy then decide later you really needd a D lineman who ends up being available more than the extra Tight End you had and say “well, screw him I reckon.”
Agreed, let them transfer and play immediately.
doe snot fall
I read that sentence three times before I could get past the mental image of a deer with a big ole green glob of snot hanging from her nose. Then I figured out the typo, and the sentence made perfect sense…I think I’ve been in slow mode lately….
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 11, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
dang i oversigned too much bacon this morning
towerofbammer.com
by Alabama ManDance on Sep 10, 2010 9:40 AM CDT reply actions
might be going to a bowl game early this year
http://towerofbammer.com
by Alabama ManDance on Sep 10, 2010 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If the game gets messy,
the Aubs have plenty of what you need.
"Let's go be champions, boys!" - Greg McElroy
(Formerly SugarBowl93)
by RememberTheRoseBowl on Sep 10, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
This may be one instance...
…when you don’t want to hold on to the rock….
"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban
by NiceLittleSaturday on Sep 10, 2010 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions
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