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Alabama By the Numbers: Roster Experience

Like most things that seem too obvious to mention, the value of roster experience can be difficult to quantify. It makes complete sense that the more high-quality players you lose to the pros will adversely affect your team's performance. And, conversely, the more returning experienced guys you have should bode well to at least maintain the squad's level of play.

The problem is figuring out a way to measure this effect in a way that provides any meaningful information. To start, here are the numbers that should affect the SEC in 2011 - the total picks in last April's NFL Draft and expected number of returning starters. For the numbers here, I am relying on the NFL for the draft and Phil Steele for the starters. (I know the numbers in the latter might have changed a bit in the last six months but for such an inexact indicator I'm not going to scour every team's roster.)

Team NFL Draft Ret. Start
Alabama 5 (4) 17
Arkansas 3 15
Auburn 4 (2) 7
Florida 4 (1) 13
Georgia 6 (1) 17
Kentucky 1 17
LSU 6 (1) 15
Ole Miss 1 16
Miss. State 4 (1) 15
S. Carolina 2 13
Tennessee 2 13
Vandy 0 21

Numbers in parenthesis represent first round picks.

So what does this all mean? Well, that's a good question. And the first thing I learned on the way to getting my degree in Philosophy is that when someone says "That's a good question" they are really saying you aren't going to get an answer.

Star-divide

Still, maybe we can shed a little light on the situation by looking at last year's numbers and the final record of each program in question.

2010 Roster Experience
Team Draftees Ret. Start Record
Alabama 7 (2) 10 10-3
Arkansas 1 18 10-3
Auburn 2 16 14-0
Florida 9 (3) 15 8-5
Georgia 5 18 6-7
Kentucky 3 13 6-7
LSU 6 12 11-2
Ole Miss 4 11 4-8
Miss. State 2 17 9-4
S. Carolina 2 17 9-5
Tennessee 6 (2) 13 6-7
Vandy 2 11 2-10

Well that's clear as mud. Alabama, Florida, LSU and Tennessee all lost six or more players to the draft and all but LSU had a worse record than the year before. But it's hard to say ten-win seasons are really a dropoff in terms of production. Alabama, LSU, Tennessee and Kentucky all brought back 13 starters or less and all but LSU took a step back.Thanks for ruining it for everyone LSU.

Almost as important is what this chart doesn't say. There really isn't anything to indicate Auburn's insane improvement in production with the addition of one extremely talented player. In the same manner, LSU's lack of a dropoff is as mystifying as Georgia's incredible slide.

It seems to me, and this is just my opinion, that roster experience is helpful as a data point instead of a specific measure of a team's production either past or projected. Thus if a team has some other metric that seems too close to call such as, say, a very close Pythagorean Win projection, then the experience of the squad in question can be used to evaluate that more thoroughly.

Folks like Steele who make serious hay of this statistic typically have created a unique metric to measure it to deduce their conclusions. Steele contends that 70% of the teams that "rank among the top of the NCAA in players drafted" have weaker records but also notes the next year's National Champion is very likely to appear on his list of teams affected (because teams regularly putting players in the NFL are usually the top squads in college football).

I'm not about to delve that far into this matter primarily because my even limited assessment of it makes me doubtful of it's merit as a means to evaluate teams with any degree of analytical rigor. But perhaps someone out there with a bit better background might be willing to give it a go, so I've put together what numbers I've got to give them a head start.

Now when I went over this topic last year I compiled a chart comparing every SEC team's draft numbers and subsequent record. I've updated that for this post:

Draftdayhangover11_medium

And like last year, it's really hard to pick out any real pattern to it. In almost every case, losing a large number of players to the draft seems to be followed with a regression in the team's overall win/loss record the following season. Oh and this observation I made last year:

"It would seem losing more than six players to the NFL draft makes it almost certain a team will suffer a sub double-digit win season. In fact, the more likely result is a eight or nine-win campaign."

Was flat out wrong in not one but two instances. Here's another example of my awry analaytical work. Last year I examined the percentage of SEC teams suffering weaker records after losing sizeable numbers of players to the draft over a ten-year span. Here's that same comparison done for the decade ending in 2010 and compared to the prior percentages.

Draft Picks Totals and Subsequent Records Across the SEC
3+ 4+ 5+ 6+ 7+
Stronger Record 24 13 6 4 2
Same Record 7 4 2 2 2
Weaker Record 39 32 23 13 10
Percent Weaker 56% 65% 74% 68% 71%
Last Year 48% 55% 61% 63% 66%

Yeah, the odds still seem to be against you down the line but not in any pattern that I can see. Some of this, obviously, has to do with the increasingly small sample size but a good deal of it has to do with the specific players and the positions they play as well. Until someone comes up with a robust way of evaluating all those figures, I think this indicator is gonna remain just a "rule of thumb."

Comment 26 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I wander over one day

and see that y’all have a soccer fan and a philosopher writing for the site. Stop ruining all my Bama stereotypes!

Signed,

A fan of Tennessee and US Soccer and a Ph.D student in philosophy

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Jul 27, 2011 10:06 AM CDT reply actions  

i considered grad school in philosophy

and came to my senses and became a journalist.

Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All

by kleph on Jul 27, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

probably a smart move

we’re at the point where people are applying to 15-20 different grad schools just to get two or three acceptances, and the job market’s even worse.

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Jul 27, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

TWO philosphers...

…I’ve got a degree in philosophy, too. IS YOUR MIND SUFFICIENTLY BLOWN?!

Roll Bama Roll - The Champagne of Bama Blogs.

by Todd on Jul 27, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

ARGH

it burns!

Heel for school, Vol for life!

Bolts, Preds, Canes (childhood team, home state team, hometown team). Canes mini-STH. Southern hockey solidarity!

by Incipient_Senescence on Jul 27, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Seconded.

Wait…huh!?

Dave Robertson is growing up to be the new Mariano Rivera. My two universes of fandom can finally unite!

by SoGladILeftTheACC on Jul 27, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the number crunching Kleph! Good stuff!

I think it comes down to two main ingredients each year. The first has to do with team chemistry or team consciousness. We learned last week at media days that last year’s team never came together or hung out with each other. They never formed their own identity. Each team has to pay the price to achieve excellence. Leadership is key. I don’t think this was a problem with coach Bryant’s teams.

Since all teams have returning starters the big difference is their athletic ability as this fan base learned against USC on Legion Field in 1970. I coached middle school football a short 4 years and this was the big difference even at that age. So I’ll even say an upper classman is more valuable than an underclassman when comparing returning starters. Coaching is a variable but you can win even with bad coaching (just ask LSU players).

by PharmacyBob on Jul 27, 2011 11:36 AM CDT reply actions  

thanks, but let's be honest

this is less number crunching than simply number presentation. i fiddled with this post for a week and really couldn’t derive any reasonable assessment that i felt comfortable enough with to draw a conclusion about all this data. basically i’m pretty much giving up and putting the numbers out there for you guys to come up with theories that could work.

Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All

by kleph on Jul 27, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would be curious

to match up the teams on our schedule last year and see if we lost to a team that had fewer personnel losses and vice versa.

Maybe I will take some time tonight and cross walk Kleph’s charts with that.

"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin

by 13thBama on Jul 27, 2011 11:41 AM CDT reply actions  

Oh and!

Sorry to walk in on you and Darth :D

"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin

by 13thBama on Jul 27, 2011 11:42 AM CDT reply actions  

Has there been any number crunching...

Regarding the number of juniors and seniors who return as starters?

Something like of those who have 10+ win seasons how many starters are juniors and seniors? It seems to me that with the O-line this is especially telling of offensive production. You get 4+ senior starters on your O-line and you’re going to put up big numbers and therefore increase the likelihood of winning more games.

Talent can only get you so far. Give me a player who has less talent, but the heart of a champion and the will to succeed.

by Bamapride on Jul 27, 2011 12:12 PM CDT reply actions  

What you lose doesn't matter

It’s what you have coming back. I haven’t done the math, but I’m sure If you slide the columns over so that you compare the records with the NFL draft picks after the season you’ll get some pretty strong correlations. Which is kind of obvious; the teams with the most talent are going to win the most games. The application here though (and this is kind of what Phil Steele was referring to) is that losing 5 or 6 NFL draft picks doesn’t matter so much if you’re plugging in 5 or 6 more and everybody else on the roster has another year of experience.

As far as the returning starters, to take something that makes intuitive sense and put a math spin on it I would say that one of the biggest effects of experience is on variance. I’ve been looking at several smart football posts the last few days (several of which I got to from the rollbamaroll twitter feed, so thanks for that), so the concept of the best teams trying to reduce variance is fresh on my mind. Young guys will make more mistakes and generally will be more likely to take a chance on making a big play which may payoff or may not, which ends up increasing the variance. Experience allows a player to cut out the silly mistakes, but hopefully it also allows them to be wiser on when to take chances. This decreases the variance, and hopefully shortens the negative end of the bell curve more than the positive end. And then of course, experienced players have had more time to physically mature and put in their time in the weight room so the whole curve shifts to the right as well.

So, to sum it up:
Young team, little talent — Won’t win many games
Experienced team, little talent — Won’t win many, but will win some they shouldn’t by not making mistakes and taking advantage of the other team’s mistakes
Young team, lots of talent — Plays at a high level, but will have a few head-scratchers in which they lose to a less talented team when that high variance rears its head (sound familiar?)
Experienced team, lots of talent — Consistently plays at a high level and is hard to beat

I know, earth shattering information, but it seemed to me to be a little different way to look at it.

by zeke2029 on Jul 27, 2011 12:18 PM CDT reply actions   2 recs

you see, i can't agree with that

the loss of key, nfl-level personnel has to have an effect. there is just far to much ability and experience these guys have for it not to matter. the test case is the 2009 sugar bowl. the last minute loss of the best lineman on the team clearly affected the level of play in the game. while you might be able to offset that effect across the off season it’s not negligible.

obviously, the correct attitude in terms of performance is coach saban’s where he demands you look at each and every season in isolation. but to do that you have to be able to realistically account for the skills of the players you have on the field.

Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All

by kleph on Jul 27, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

but regardless of skills...

the results come from the experience right?

I do agree that the quality of the starters has to have an impact.

Talent can only get you so far. Give me a player who has less talent, but the heart of a champion and the will to succeed.

by Bamapride on Jul 27, 2011 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

the results come from both

and the better the combination in the player that leaves, the harder to fill the hole in the roster. case in point, the departure of marcell dareus and todd’s observation about the difficulty of getting quality defensive line talent.

Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All

by kleph on Jul 27, 2011 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

One interesting factor...

…in the test case you mention above is what happened the season after Andre Smith left. Our coaching staff went out, identified, and brought in a top-level juco LT with both talent and experience against college-level competition, who ended up becoming a first-round draft pick himself. So, while the loss of Smith in 2009 had an effect, it was practically negated by plugging in a gifted player with experience to boot.

BTW, let’s not forget the impact of losing Mike Johnson in the first quarter of the 2009 Sugar Bowl. We might have held it together and eked out a win with him on the line. Once he was gone, our chances were, too. We missed him last season as well.

I like this kind of post a lot, and I’ve usually not given as much credence to the number of NFL draftees lost as the number of returning starters, but I agree that it the effect is significant. Thanks.

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jul 27, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

obviously

injuries are the unmeasured factor here. i’ve posted before about how i’d love if anyone could point me to any kind of database that accumulates cfb injury info.

Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All

by kleph on Jul 27, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

When projecting this year's record from last year's, talent lost is important

but it’s only half of the story. The reason you can’t do any better than a rule of thumb is because the important thing is the delta between the player leaving and the player stepping into his role. Losing Smith wouldn’t have hurt as bad if Carpenter had been on the team ready to step in. On the other hand, if our best backup had been on the level of some of the tackles under Shula I don’t think we’d have ever gotten back into the game. When you look at the probabilities of a team having NFL talent on hand to replace significant numbers of outgoing NFL talent, not many teams can do it, and thus you have your rule of thumb. I would say LSU potentially has that kind of talent, and that plus the mad hatter’s well documented good luck is why they didn’t fit into the rule of thumb and take a step back last year. It’s also why we bucked the trend of not being able to win 10 games after so many losses to the NFL. (Also note that half those seasons had one fewer game than we have now, so 10 wins was a little harder.)

Your second paragraph is getting to where I was coming from: this year’s team will win however many games it will win based on the quality of who’s there now, not who left. The only effect last year’s stars will have on this year’s team is the mentoring they did while they were here and how the new players react to roles they didn’t have last year. Other than that, Square, Chapman and Stinson won’t perform any better or worse because Marcel Darius was on the team last year. Hanks, Maze and Carter would still be Hanks, Maze and Carter even if Julio had never been at Alabama. This year’s team stands on its own regardless of who we lost from last year. And I think you can expect us to once again win 10+ and improve our record despite the losses to the NFL and what that means in most cases.

by zeke2029 on Jul 27, 2011 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree...

…and if we only win 10 games, then this will be a second straight disappointing season, which is awesome if you think about it (not winning only 10 games, but that it would be disappointing).

/criedintheyearsbetweenCoachStallingsandCNS

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jul 28, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Going back to my previous post

Of experience from those who return as starters. A reasonble expectation is the more seniors coming back as starters increases the odds of success. While Aurburn did have Camtastic, last year’s class was loaded with upperclassmen.

Talent can only get you so far. Give me a player who has less talent, but the heart of a champion and the will to succeed.

by Bamapride on Jul 27, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Vandy should dominate this year....

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jul 27, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

precisely the problem i was running into

how do i glean meaningful information with this data without looking at individual player ability? every option i thought of involved a ton more work.

Remember the Rose Bowl: The Story of the Alabama Crimson Tide & the Grandaddy of Them All

by kleph on Jul 27, 2011 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

IMO...

…this would make an excellent topic for a round-robin discussion amongst educated fans of every SEC team (Auburn would still be allowed to participate, though). It wouldn’t be as scientific, but it would be an easier way to gather answers to questions like, “Now that Nick (Un)Fairley has left the fambly…what else ya got?” Kind of like the Bama roundup y’all have done, but extended to the rest of the conference. ’Twould make a good read….

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Jul 27, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

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