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What Alabama Football History Can Teach Us About The End of Sabanball

"In the long run," the economist John Maynard Keynes once noted. "We are all dead." The quote is commonly recited for its wry pragmatism and seeming cynical irreverence. That interpretation widely misses the broader point Keynes was trying to make. The entire quote from A Tract on Monetary Reform published in 1923 is this:

The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead. Economists set themselves too easy, too useless a task if in tempestuous seasons they can only tell us that when the storm is past the ocean is flat again.

To use the common cliché, Keynes was pointing out that sometimes the view of the forest can impair the health of your trees. Every Day Should Be Saturday’s Spencer Hall evokes this point in a post today about the long-term prospects of the Alabama Crimson Tide football program. His SB Nation article The End Of Sabanball: Details, Barbarians, And Precision suggests that the overwhelming success of the Crimson Tide under Nick Saban is likely living on borrowed time. How much is the open question.

The secret of Sabanball, as Hall puts it, is not simply the highest quality recruits, opulent facilities and an almost religious devotion on the part of the Crimson Tide faithful. It is, in fact, how Saban manages to integrate them all to a single purpose that makes Alabama so formidable to face on the football field.

That replication and repetition across a long series of efforts is hard to find in college football period, but if someone wants to counter Sabanball. If you take all other things as equal, that answer is going to have to have everything Alabama has including that rarest thing of all: talent taught to perform with unvarying precision in a short period of time.

So what, he asks, is the anti virus to the Saban Syndrome? He offers a few examples of potent offenses that have seen some success against the Crimson Tide and offers Dana Holgerson’s attack as a likely candidate (an argument he states more straightforwardly here) but, eventually, the answer is just being patient.

Otherwise, failing the hiring or development of someone to counter the threat, you wait for time and tide to erode your opponent while taking your beatings with dignity. Assistants get hired away. Age dulls the ambition. Presidents meddle in otherwise functional athletic departments. Other programs hire great talent to beat the good, and transformative athletes look elsewhere for their Shaolin football training.

Sure things might seem rough right now for the hoi polloi but don’t worry, there are even greater group of unwashed set to show up at the gates soon enough. That's the long run response and, as Keynes notes, it offers little short term relief to the problem.

Star-divide

Interestingly, this is exactly the point where the history of Alabama football has the most to teach us about what to expect and possible ways Crimson Tide football may be able to avoid the malaise of creeping entropy.

Wade_thomas_medium
Wallace Wade and Frank Thomas

The ascension of Alabama's football fortunes began in the 1920s as the team was profoundly fortunate to secure the services of two great coaches in succession. Over the course of two decades Wallace Wade and Frank Thomas rolled up a combined record of 176-37-11 at the Capstone and earned a total of five national championships.

(The achievements of these two coaches overshadow the efforts of two very good coaches that preceded them Xen Scott and Thomas Kelly who went a combined 46-16-4.)

Following Thomas’ stepping down as head coach in 1946 the program first stumbled under Red Drew then fell flat with Ears Whitworth. The decade-long decay was acerbated by the memories of the power the program had been before. That keen push to return to the top of the sport prompted the pursuit and hiring of Paul W. Bryant.

Obviously, Bryant’s quarter century at the helm of the Crimson Tide football program was the most successful in Alabama’s history. After the Bama re-assumed its place at the forefront of college football, the hopes of an end to its dominance were rife among its foes. After a decade, it seemed those hopes were realized as Bryant’s magic seemed to have reached its end.

Bryant then rejuvenated the program with two daring moves – he switched to the Wishbone offense and embraced integration. As much as the high power offense provided a spark to Alabama’s attack, the influx of talent to the team brought by integration was the engine to the Crimson Tide’s dominance in the 1970s. The latter wasn’t necessarily a moral position framed by the civil rights era. Bryant understood that a segregated program simply denied itself a swath of the recruits foes with fewer qualms would readily welcome.

It was the two decades following Bryant’s death that marked the longest period of turmoil for the program since before World War I. Although the team didn’t regress as badly as it had in the 1950s, consistency was elusive. Every Alabama head coach that lead the team onto the football field since Bryant earned at least one 10-win season. None were able to do it twice Only Gene Stallings was able to do it more than once before Nick Saban arrived.

Bryant_retires_medium

Looking back across the last century of Alabama football and surveying the eras of dominance and the varied coaches they occurred under, there are important lessons to be learned about what might be needed to forestall the slow slide from the heights of success.

The first is the importance of cooperation at the administrative levels of the athletic department and the university administration. Wallace Wade and Frank Thomas were hired by President George Hucheson Denny who saw the football team as a way of raising the profile of the university and oversaw the program with great care. It's not by accident this man's name adorns the football stadium.

There was a remarkably consistency in the management of the athletic department until Denny’s retirement in 1942. Soon after Frank Thomas stepped down as athletic director and the result was uncertainty as various interests competed for control of the program.

Thus, when Bryant was hired he specifically insisted on being both the head coach and the athletic director. The hire also meshed well with the efforts of Alabama’s president Frank Rose who had spent several years resolving the crises that engulfed the tenure of his predecessor, Oliver Carmichael.

After Bryant’s passing the football program and the athletic department encountered a turmoil very similar to that which engulfed them during the 1950s. The competing interests of the administration, the alumni and athletic department made consistency impossible. Ray Perkins left for Tampa Bay, Bill Curry departed for Kentucky and Gene Stallings retired rather than deal with AD Bob Bockrath any longer.

The key hire was most likely that of Robert Witt as Alabama’s president in 2002. His arrival brought a specific vision for the school and, most importantly, the place of the football program within it. The NCAA probation served to quiet the various factions that had battled for control and bought time for Witt and Moore to hire Nick Saban.

So where does all this leave us today? Surely Hall is correct in assuming that eventually the forces of entropy will assert their control and Alabama football will fall from its current place atop college football. It takes no gift of prophecy to predict that, just a reasonable understanding that Newton's second law of thermodynamics can be applied to history. Like the Golden Palominos once said, no matter how hard you work, something else is working harder.

That isn’t to say it will happen anytime soon. Coach Saban has always been clear that maintaining a high degree of success is far more difficult that reaching it once. His system is designed to confront complacency by focusing on the process of improvement. "Successes will continue as long as the commitment to the process of being successful remains in place," he says.

Alabama’s defensive approach will produce responses. Other teams with similar talent will continue to search for strategies that can overcome it. Eventually they will succeed. I’m not personally convinced that the Dana Holgorsen offensive model is more than a single game solution but for many teams, that will be more than enough. Just ask anyone in Starkville what happened on Nov. 1, 1980.

Still it will happen and, we hope, Coach Saban will continue to adapt to handle the challenges. He adopted a completely different defensive philosophy when he came to Tuscaloosa (the 3-4) so there’s no reason to expect he wouldn’t make a dramatic change in the future if circumstances called for it.

Eventually, though, the end will come. Nick Saban is 60 years old. It is reasonable to expect him to continue coaching for at least five more years and, if we are lucky, a full decade. The likelihood of him leaving Alabama is low because the only challenge left for a man who has resurrected as many college programs is to oversee a dynasty.

The hope we have now is that Coach Saban, Mal Moore and Robert Witt have taken an opportunity to start thinking about the next step and pondering difficult questions. How will Alabama transition from their tenure to that of their successors? What will be the process of selecting who will replace them and what will the criteria for selecting them? Is there even a wish list of possible candidates?

History has shown that putting these matters aside is the one way to guarantee they will have an unsatisfying outcome. When Coach Bryant resigned as head coach in 1982 he remained UA’s Athletic Director with the intention of helping the school transition from his leadership. His untimely death less than a month brought that plan to a tragic end. For Alabama, the long run had proven quite short indeed.

UPDATE: Year2 over at Team Speed Kills has weighed in with a response to Hall's article as well.

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Few things are more fun...

…than when RBRers start spewing political propaganda out of their blowholes. Kills a buzz quick….

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 14, 2012 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

It started in the post

so why can’t he respond? Oh, that’s right. Only the elite can. Sorry, forgot.

"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin

"A sign of intelligence is an awareness of one's own ignorance." - Unknown

by 13thBama on Feb 14, 2012 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Since you missed it...

…the first time, I’ll point out that I never said he couldn’t respond, and I didn’t exclude kleph from my jibe. However, I would like to thank you for recognizing my elite status. I’d like to tell you the amount of money I receive from RBR each month, but I’m afraid it would blow your mind….

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 14, 2012 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Kleph cited a quotation.

He made no political or economic argument. He simply drew a simile between Spencer’s argument and Keynes’ quote-the idea that yes, at some point the economy will recover/Alabama will no longer be dominant. But we don’t know when that will happen and knowing that it will happen provides no insight as to how to alleviate or lessen the “problem” in the short term.

It was in no way a political argument until YellowHammer turned it into one.

by rugman11 on Feb 14, 2012 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Capital is dead labor

That would have been a good quote too.

"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin

"A sign of intelligence is an awareness of one's own ignorance." - Unknown

by 13thBama on Feb 14, 2012 3:06 PM CST up reply actions  

I prefer
  • fart * – Peter Griffin

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin

by Slice of Life on Feb 14, 2012 6:42 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

“That’s what.” – She

"If wanting to win is a fault, as some of my critics seem to insist, then I plead guilty. I like to win. I know no other way. It's in my blood." -- Paul "Bear" Bryant

by GeauxCrimson on Feb 15, 2012 8:49 AM CST up reply actions   3 recs

you've obviously never been

in a russian whore house..

Follow on twitter @thelyell
A Hundred Pounds Lost

by bammer on Feb 14, 2012 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

the Kremlin?

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 14, 2012 4:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Let’s see, Reagan and W cut taxes and increased spending and the deficit ballooned.

Sound familiar?

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 14, 2012 4:06 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

But deficit as a portion of GNP

went down under Reagan. Under current plan deficit as a portion of GNP is way too high. If we continued spending while not taking it in we are doomed…doomed people I tell you we are doomed.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

??? Um, Hell No

Carter left a balanced budget and a national debt of $950 billion, give or take a few billion. Reagan ballooned it, and Bush ballooned it again, mostly with a Republican Congress.

I am not bashing here, simply questioning the mythology – and that’s what I consider it – that has grown around the Reagan legend.

He was a good President. He also ran up some major debts and seriously expanded government. It was Cheney who said that Reagan proved that deficits don’t matter.

75% of our current debt was rung up with Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II. Those are just inescapable numbers.

This is a Washington problem, not a “who is your favorite economist” problem.

by Bocktean on Feb 14, 2012 8:15 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I will agree.

And saying deficit doesn’t matter is pretty stupid. It only doesn’t matter when you are fighting a war.

But, I will say that when Reagan took over we had double digit inflation, double digit interest rates and high unemployment. When he left things were greatly improved. And raising defense spending had some to do with the deficit and it was needed. One result was the end of the Soviet Union. I’d say he did a better job of running the economy then anyone since him.

But, Republicans can run up debts just like Dems. In fact maybe even more so because when Repubs are in power (White House) Dems sometimes will agree to hikes that are not labeled defense spending.

But, a lot of our current problems can be traced to Carter who got this community reinvestment thing going. Of course others could have ended it. But when the government tells banks they must make loans to people that banks don’t want to make loans to (because they know they can’t pay them back) well…that is a recipe for disaster. That is what the housing bust and bailouts were all about…loans being made that should never have been made. And, Dodd and Frank had everything to do with it.

Anyway, a day of reckoning is coming and we better just hope someone doesn’t decide to pay off China by printing more money because that may payoff some debt, but then your money will be worth much much less. And, it was Nixon who took us off the gold standard which has made all of this mess possible. So both parties are to blame but Obama is not helping anything right now.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 8:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

I remember visiting some clients in California who relocated to San Fransisco from the Midwest due to promotions. They were talking about their 30 year, interest-only loans. I pointed out they were renting and that any real estate downturn (which never happens in California, really) would leave them with financial incentive to walk out of the house – and the banks with vast quantities of worthless properties. These were good six figure salary execs.

I remember the banks approving my wife and I for a mortgage number that was so absurd I actually laughed. We bought a lovely home for about one-third what the bank approved. We sold it at a nice profit a few months after the market started down because we were in a price range that could accommodate a 20% down payment. The other side of the development – the ones we were being encouraged to look at – all ended up in foreclosure, because no one could buy them. They had been purchased at too high a price, and no one could (and those who could, wouldn’t) pony up 20% equity to borrow the rest.

I blame greed far more than I blame any regulations on that front.

The debt issue’s an easy one for me. We’ve got a government that would rather expand Medicare by $500 billion in an election year (thanks, W Bush and a Republican Congress) rather than risk a few votes in Florida. We’ve got one party that believes all tax cuts pay for themselves and the other which believes that all government investment returns a hefty profit in human capital.

Both are wrong in their absolutism.

by Bocktean on Feb 14, 2012 9:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Here in Japan we’re doomed, too.

Keynes, for the record promoted easy fiscal and monetary policies only during downturns, while during periods of growth he promoted tight fiscal and monetary policies.

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 15, 2012 12:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Hmm...

I think that you’ve failed to consider that ultimately, when we contemplate the dysfunction of the theories and juxtapose them against the utopian ideals, we find that the average consumption of the market conditions are often erratic and rarely approach the normalcy that would be dictated by the application of norms. Thusly, we are inclined to implicate the intricicacies of spending, time, and space in the average discussions of our regular social interactions.

…did I use enough big words to win?

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin

by Slice of Life on Feb 14, 2012 6:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Try not

to use a big word when a diminutive one will suffice.

"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way." - Steve Martin

"A sign of intelligence is an awareness of one's own ignorance." - Unknown

by 13thBama on Feb 14, 2012 7:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I respectfully disagree, sir

on several points, but not the least of which is that the free market made our country great. The great things that we have done as a nation have been the result of all of us, as Americans, combining our voices through our elected representatives (or, to put it plainly, the “government” that Ronald Reagan and others have labeled as the problem).

The free market has adequately discovered the fair price of a microwave oven, but I should hope America’s greatness rests not on that alone.

I will, however, agree on the Roll Tide, sir.

Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer Give 'Em HELL Alabama!

by RoscoeOfAlabama on Feb 15, 2012 12:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, quote more Milton Freidman. Thats what we need.

More failed ultra conservative, fuck the middle class, trickle up economics that benefits the 1%ers. Like that, you mean?

Proud mini-Saban.

by Tidee Whitee on Feb 15, 2012 6:17 AM CST up reply actions  

MF liked freesom so much he worked for Pinochet.

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 15, 2012 4:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I like freesomes too

But I can’t get my wife on board for it.

Attempting to remove humor from posts since August 30, 2011

by JokerBama on Feb 15, 2012 5:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Never had a girlfriend yet who would.

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 15, 2012 10:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Brother...

…we all have to pay….

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 16, 2012 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Preach it

Attempting to remove humor from posts since August 30, 2011

by JokerBama on Feb 16, 2012 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Great Insight/Beautiful Post
The key hire was most likely that of Robert Witt as Alabama’s president in 2002.

I’ve met Dr. Witt and he is a player. An impressive, can-do man of action who sees no contradiction in creating and sustaining an institution of both academic and athletic excellence. I hope he, and Saban, stick around for a long time.

"Luck is the residue of design."
-Branch Rickey

by ShrinkRap on Feb 14, 2012 2:00 PM CST reply actions   4 recs

Rec'd

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 14, 2012 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

A rec for you sir

Ultimately this is the hire that is going to have the largest impact on the University. For me it was clear when he had to make the decision on Price and did it without flinching that he was the man for the job. So far he has lived up to my expectations.

by UAinPHOENIX on Feb 15, 2012 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

This is all interesting, but what I don't get is the inclusion of Dana Holgerson

ok, the guy has shown he can score points, but while they certainly moved the ball well against LSU, they also got their collective asses kicked. When top coaches in the game come to mind, Holgerson probably doesn’t crack the average or even ramptant fan’s top 20.

by BamaThrasher on Feb 14, 2012 2:12 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

I prefer Dana Plato....

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 14, 2012 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

What’choo talkin’ ’bout, Willis?

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 14, 2012 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Even though she got around to doing nudes, including a lesbian scene,

too bland, too white bread for me.

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 14, 2012 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

^^^ And this isn't being REC'd to the high heavens because...?

9th January, 2012: Section 101, Row 1, Seat... I'll let y'all spot that one.

"And a crashin' blow from a huge right hand
Sent a Louisiana fellow to the Promised Land"
-- "Big John" by Jimmy Dean

by TiderUpNorth on Feb 15, 2012 1:27 AM CST up reply actions  

I can't speak for anyone else but,

I’m still thinking about Dana Plato stroking mine thanks to CarrotTop4

by Fat, Drunk & Stupid on Feb 15, 2012 1:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I think

as long as the main movers and shakers behind the Bama machine want the Tide to have a top program, it will have a top program. While Saban can rightly claim credit for winning his way at Alabama, he’s here not because he’s Nick Saban but because he’s a winner. He didn’t make the program any more than Bryant did, he was invited to continue a tradition of winning football because it mattered to people who could make it happen.

Now if you want to recriminate, what if the whole Bobby Bowden thing had been handled better? The best coach of his generation wanted to come here…. Sheeesh!

"Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body."
― Seneca

by NJBammer on Feb 14, 2012 2:26 PM CST reply actions  

the paradox alabama has faced in the past

is that the proven way to sustain success in tuscaloosa is by having coaches who are given a degree of control that allows them to maintain their approach. when they leave, the power vacuum has made it almost impossible to replace them with another similar person.

i have no doubt that the movers and shakers in the 1950s and 1980s had every desire for alabama to maintain its status as a top program but they were completely unable to realize it. historically it has taken a good executive administrator for the university, a superb head coach of the football team and an athletic director capable enough to balance things between the two. when any of those three elements have been lacking, the results have been substandard.

SB Nation's The Historical: Because all those games way back when matter.

by kleph on Feb 14, 2012 2:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Yup

and when any of those three elements have been lacking, they have been replaced very quickly, which is my point.

"Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body."
― Seneca

by NJBammer on Feb 14, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Somebody say Free Shoes?

I’m in!

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 14, 2012 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I think as long as the main movers and shakers behind the Bama machine want the Tide to have a top program, it will have a top program.

Yep, thank god for the REC.

Follow on twitter @thelyell
A Hundred Pounds Lost

by bammer on Feb 14, 2012 3:27 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

REC!

See, they even control SBN.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 14, 2012 3:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I think this may be a little too optimistic...

There are plenty of major programs that have so called “movers and shakers…who want a top program” but that alone is far from a guarantee of a top program. A contending program? Sure, the programs with the resources of a Bama, Georgia, Florida, or UT will always eventually contend, but you can’t honestly believe that the “movers and shakers” in Tuscaloosa are all that different from the ones in Athens, Knoxville, or Baton Rouge? My point is that every big time program has big time alumni, who demand results. Bama certainly had a powerful alumni base before Saban, but that didn’t guarantee results. No program is immune to the inevitable fall, and believe me…I know.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 14, 2012 7:35 PM CST up reply actions  

ebbs and flows are certainly a guarantee

regardless of how motivated alumni are. For example, Notre Dame is a prime example of a school will powerful alumni that puts a great deal of emphasis on the football program, yet they are in a 20 year swoon. In fact, I would contend that movers and shakers getting too involved is incredibly dangerous. For example, Logan Young played a large part in almost single handedly getting Alabama such severe sanctions. To me, it goes back to having a consistent and steady hand at the wheel guiding the vision in the form of the University President and Atheletic Director, followed closely by the head coach. When I was at the capstone, it was readily evident what a mess everything was (this was 97-01). The President at the time was Sorenson, and the AD was Bockrath. Comparing those two to Dr. Witt and Mal Moore is like trying to compare a 76 Nova to a 2012 Porsche. While Saban and the players deserve a lion share of credit for producing, the stability and leadership by Witt and Moore paved the way for their success.

As to Florida, its really a unique story when it comes to the Gators. Traditionally speaking, prior to Spurrier, gator football basically was no better than Alabama’s basketball tradition. That said, with the redistribution of population to Florida, combined with great coaching and I can only assume terrific leadership at the administrative level; the Gators have really had an unprecedented 20 year rise to national prominence. Given the enormous financial resources available to Florida and the nearby access to such great talent, so long as their own house is in order, I would imagine that the Gators will be back, and back sooner rather than later.

by BamaThrasher on Feb 14, 2012 8:21 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I just hope Muschamp stays for a while

because that guy can be beat…and beat down.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 8:45 PM CST up reply actions  

that's funny

we said the same thing after Saban’s first year in Tuscaloosa. Surely if a Gator fan is still withholding judgement after one year of a new coach, a Bama fan can do the same. Now if we go 7-6 again, have at it….I assure you we will.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 14, 2012 9:04 PM CST up reply actions  

If I could reach you Cardsfan I'd bet you a steak dinner

UF does not make the SECCG in 2012 and the east my friend is weak.

Oh, but the program was on life support when WM arrived like it was when Saban arrived at Bama…NOT.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 9:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I am in Alabama, and I'm pretty sure Ruth's Chris has gift cards...just saying

So, it’s your belief that Florida had what exactly when WM arrived? A stacked roster? A competent QB? Perhaps a very good Oline? Maybe even a roster over 70? Nope, not a one. I know I know, hard to believe, after all Meyer did rake in those highly ranked recruiting classes, but have you seen the attrition Florida has had? Seriously…68 players on scholarship last year, and John Brantley was one of them.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 14, 2012 9:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I think Florida had the run of the state of Florida

before WM arrived and if your recruits did nothing I’d blame part of that on coaches. You lost to every team on your schedule who had a winning record except Furman Do you realize that…you beat one team with a winning record and you trailed those guys.

Do you get it. WM signature win was a victory over a 6-5 Furman in which he pulled it out late. A game in which you out gained Furman by 7 total yards.

I would think that even with only 70 guys a middle school coach could beat the snot out of Furman.

At least in Saban’s 1st year at Bama we beat UT (who went to the SECCG) and Arky who finished 8-5 as well as hanging right with the eventual NC (LSU). At least Saban had done something before.

Anyway, time will tell but I’d bet one of your guys already owns the rights to FireWillMuschamp.com

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 9:40 PM CST up reply actions  

come on man

La Tech.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 14, 2012 10:19 PM CST up reply actions  

That loss was in 1999 and we beat UF twice that year

to win the SEC so that loss was forgiven.

If you want to argue Alabama football on this board you need to know Alabama football.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 10:34 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

good thing I don't want to argue Alabama football then...

I’m not really sure what it is we’re arguing at all really. Florida had a terrible year, but I’m not yet ready to deem WM a total failure. That’s really the only thing I’m “arguing” if you want to call it that. Perhaps I meant La Monroe? Was that the 07 loss? I really don’t remember, but the point is, what’s the point the arguing levels of a crappy season? A crappy season is a crappy season….case closed.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 14, 2012 10:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Cards, I hope you realize that EVERY fan of another program that comments on RBR throws the Louisiana-Lafayette loss in our face.

The only problem with that logic being that Alabama’s program has soared since then.

I agree that WM can/should do much better in 2012, but 5026 has an excellent point in that the SEC East is weak. It should be anyone’s (and I’m counting Missouri and Tenny) division with a little luck. After 2007, Alabama jettisoned Applewhite as OC. Florida did the same with Weis after 2011. Muschamp will have his work cut out for him, as the East is jammed with rising and falling programs fighting for respectability.

9th January, 2012: Section 101, Row 1, Seat... I'll let y'all spot that one.

"And a crashin' blow from a huge right hand
Sent a Louisiana fellow to the Promised Land"
-- "Big John" by Jimmy Dean

by TiderUpNorth on Feb 15, 2012 1:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Not sure if surrious...?

Are y’all both that dumb or…..what? It was the University of Louisiana at Monroe WarHawks. 21-14? John (choke) Parker (turnover-machine) Wilson? Jimmy Johns fumble to seal the loss? Pearl Harbor?? 9/11??? Holes in my wall?!? NEVER FORGET!

by clockster on Feb 15, 2012 2:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Thank You!!

That is what I’m talking about when i said if you are going to argue Alabama you have to know Alabama.

We did lose to La Tech in 1999. However, we did beat UF twice that year and won the SEC.

We have played La Lafayette 8 times winning all 8 but the last time we played them was 1990 and they were known as Southwestern LA.

And all Bama remembers we lost to La Monore in 2007. Since that “Pearl Harbor” the Tide had been hot…going 49 and 7 since that loss.

Anyone here thinking Florida is about to go on a 49-7 run under the great Will Muschump?

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 15, 2012 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow, forgive the shit outta me for not memorizing every goddamned loss of the past 30+ years.

Fuck’s the difference? Bama has been aces since then.

9th January, 2012: Section 101, Row 1, Seat... I'll let y'all spot that one.

"And a crashin' blow from a huge right hand
Sent a Louisiana fellow to the Promised Land"
-- "Big John" by Jimmy Dean

by TiderUpNorth on Feb 15, 2012 5:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I was really replying to Cardsfan who brought

up ULM but called them La Tech.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 15, 2012 8:50 PM CST up reply actions  

"Pearl Harbor" for Alabama was the 2000 season, IMO.

No, I’m not dumb. I just don’t check certain facts as thoroughly as yourself. I’m just a fan, I assume you are too.

And FYI, I also can’t remember the bottom-feeding Florida school we lost to before that abortion of a season ended either.

9th January, 2012: Section 101, Row 1, Seat... I'll let y'all spot that one.

"And a crashin' blow from a huge right hand
Sent a Louisiana fellow to the Promised Land"
-- "Big John" by Jimmy Dean

by TiderUpNorth on Feb 16, 2012 9:01 AM CST up reply actions  

UCF

I was there. It was homecoming. ughhh

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 16, 2012 9:38 AM CST up reply actions  

I called in Pearl Harbor

because that is what Saban called it.

Truth is from Bryant’s last year to Saban’s 2nd season we lost to the likes of N. Ill, UCF, La Tech (TWICE!!), Vandy, Memphis, ULM, Kentucky, and Hawaii. That folks is some bad football.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 16, 2012 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

It burns us!

Never speak of this again!

"You go out there and dominate the man you're playing against, and you make his ass quit! - Coach Nick Saban.

Actually it's 14 National Championships now. We're winning them so quickly I can't keep up.

by 12NationalChampionships on Mar 11, 2012 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

It was simply in response to the comments about Furman

and the fact that Bama has soared since then, is exactly the point. I just find it a little strange that a Bama fan (not you) would try so hard to convince me that the Florida head coach is a waste of space, and an idiot after one 7-6 season, and some really crappy losses. It just kind of seems to me that if any fanbase can understand how the first season of a head coach isn’t absolutely indicative of what he’ll do moving forward, it would be ya’ll.

For the record, I don’t expect Florida to win the East this year, and that in and of itself is a pretty big problem. It is incredibly weak, but you never know. If we can find an offense, we’ll certainly be in the mix.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 15, 2012 7:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm not trying to convice you that WM is a bad coach.

I actually hope you and the rest of the Gators think he is a good coach. You said UF would be back sooner rather than latter and I was trying to point out that is an iffy statement based on who is leading the charge at UF.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 15, 2012 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I see a lot of similarities between UF's 2011 team and Bama's 2007 team.

Again, I still feel a few teams could take the East, UF being one of them.

9th January, 2012: Section 101, Row 1, Seat... I'll let y'all spot that one.

"And a crashin' blow from a huge right hand
Sent a Louisiana fellow to the Promised Land"
-- "Big John" by Jimmy Dean

by TiderUpNorth on Feb 15, 2012 5:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Well we both won our bowl game.

Fortunately for Alabama we had a proven coach…UF does not. Now if he goes 12-2 next year and then wins it all in 2013 I’ll start seeing similarities.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 15, 2012 8:53 PM CST up reply actions  

La-Monroe

not Lafayette

Remember: LA-MO.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 15, 2012 8:14 AM CST up reply actions  

Honestly, I was just THRILLED Saban was our coach...

But, I still wasn’t expecting much out of a very flawed Shula creation. Hence, our 2007 nosedive wasn’t the jarring nightmare that… certain losses of yesteryear were for me.

9th January, 2012: Section 101, Row 1, Seat... I'll let y'all spot that one.

"And a crashin' blow from a huge right hand
Sent a Louisiana fellow to the Promised Land"
-- "Big John" by Jimmy Dean

by TiderUpNorth on Feb 15, 2012 5:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Anyway, time will tell but I’d bet one of your guys already owns the rights to FireWillMuschamp.com

This isn’t really saying much. I bet some fool already owns the rights to firenicksaban.com too. Granted, it’s probably a barner.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 15, 2012 8:13 AM CST up reply actions  

we said the same thing after Saban’s first year in Tuscaloosa.

Shirley, you can’t be serious. I think people are selling Muschamp way short, but his bounce back from 7-6 is not anywhere near as guaranteed as Saban’s was. Saban at the beginning of 2008 was MUCH more of a proven commodity than Muschamp is right now. If you as a Gator felt confident in being able to beat him down and you were happy to have him at Alabama, well that was just foolish.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 15, 2012 8:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Of course we didn't

I’m well aware of the difference between when Saban came to Bama, and Muschamp to Florida. My point was simply that it’s a bit foolish to declare a coach a failure, and say that “as long as he’s there….they won’t win”. I’m sure you guys know how the rest of us felt about Saban coming to Bama. That first season was a nice little surprise, and perhaps the most blind and anti-Bama folks thought that Saban would fail, but the majority of us knew good things were coming for Bama. I don’t know that we expected quite this much good, but we knew he would have Bama competing at a very high level. He’s a hell of a coach. I don’t like him, but he’s a hell of coach.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 15, 2012 9:22 AM CST up reply actions  

A little testy are we.

The thing that blows my mind is that when Urban left you guys could have likely gotten about anyone you wanted. Seriously most name coaches, proven coaches, would have jumped at UF.

We had to try really hard and pray really hard that Saban would come to Bama.

But you could have gotten anyone. You probably could have gotten the Old Ball Coach to return if you couldn’t think of anyone. But the possibilities were endless.

So, what do you do? You go with a guy who has never been a HC. You go with a guy that was getting shelled as a DC (you actually bailed out Texas!!)

And then when you go 7-6 and lose to every single winning team on your schedule you turn around and act like he is still going to do it. Oh, I imagine he will get you to 8-5 this year and you will stay there for the next 3 years. But he is not a Spurrier or a Meyer and for that we at Alabama say “thank you Gators…one less program in our way.”

To be honest the hiring of Chizik makes more sense.

But who knows, maybe WM will prove Foley a genius.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 15, 2012 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

agree to disagree

because just as I shouldn’t attempt to argue Bama, having this conversation with you is largely pointless. Thanks for your charming point of view. Later.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 15, 2012 4:46 PM CST up reply actions  

To weigh in on an issue on which I have no real knowledge...

I’d just point out that there were lots of coaches who would have jumped at the chance to coach at Texas, too, and they felt comfortable handing things over to Muschamp. Kind of like how many folks around the Alabama program would feel comfortable handing things over to Smart, when the time comes.

Fourteen.

by Darth Saban on Feb 15, 2012 11:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Not I.

Not unless he goes out and gets some OJT somewhere else first.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 16, 2012 8:23 AM CST up reply actions  

This^^^

I think we’ve seen that a large majority of coaches that land in a big time school without having been the head coach at a smaller school first, tend to end up in train wrecks. There is just too much responsibility at that level that can be overwhelming the first go-round. Even Coach Bryant learned the ropes from the bottom (Maryland) to the top (Bama). I’m sure there are some examples out there where this is wrong, but I bet there aren’t many.

Attempting to remove humor from posts since August 30, 2011

by JokerBama on Feb 16, 2012 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

THIS^^^ and THIS^^

We do not need to hand off to Smart. I like Smart, but we have no idea how he would do as HC.

If we had to get someone right now I’m not sure where we would turn. I like the Boise coach but don’t know if he is a fit.

With Bama connections: I want Dabo to be good, but then the Orange Bowl was terrible. I sort of wish GMac would give up playing and start coaching as head coach in a lower division and start getting ready to be a potential Bama coach. Joey Jones could be a dark horse.

Who is the best Coach out there not named Saban?

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 16, 2012 1:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Harbaugh?

"High standards come from passion within...." --Coach Nick Saban

by NiceLittleSaturday on Feb 16, 2012 2:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I could accept that

Attempting to remove humor from posts since August 30, 2011

by JokerBama on Feb 16, 2012 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

To qualify further...

Who is the best Coach out there not named Saban?

that we could live with. Back in the day Spurrier was probably considered the best coach out there, but I couldn’t stand it if that a-hole became our coach. The same could be said about Urban.

NLS said Harbaugh, that would be fine.

Some of the ‘up and coming’ class might be possibilities, but I want to make sure that they can sustain over a period of time and not just a year or two (Sumlin, Franklin, etc)

Attempting to remove humor from posts since August 30, 2011

by JokerBama on Feb 16, 2012 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

People think just handing the ropes to the best assistant is the best thing. Sandusky’s problems aside, he’s no Paterno. True, Paterno was an assistant who got promoted. But it was a different game then—a lot more scholarships for a single platoon sport.

Maybe Oliver or Andrews could have done well at Alabama or FSU, but they had HC experience.

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 16, 2012 4:22 PM CST up reply actions  

and I get that

I have the feeling that Muschamp will be a good coach, though I should add that I’m just not positive if it will be at Florida. He’s an excellent defensive coach, who recruits very well. I think he’s got the work ethic etc to make it, which is why I hope we Florida faithful are patient with him. That being said, I would not be shocked if he did poorly at Florida, and then after figuring out some thing went on to a great career. Hope it doesn’t happen, but it certainly could.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 16, 2012 5:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Jeremy Foley has been nothing short of excellent as an AD

his Ron Zook hire aside. Your point about ND is a good one, and I think the Texas and FSU situations are also a good cautionary tale. In most quick declines there is a coaching change, or leadership change that facilitates the problem. Texas and FSU though both have or had their strong coach at the top, things just sort of began to fall apart around them. I don’t envision Saban ever falling into that pit, not because he’s immune, but because I think he’d leave before it got to that.

Bama is certainly in a very nice position right now, but if I’m a Bama fan, and realize that I’ve been in a somewhat similar situation recently, the thing that scares me is complacency and entitlement. Players coming in with a sense of entitlement has effectively brought both our basketball and football programs well below their standard in recent years. It’s deadly, and pervasive to a program. Again, I don’t envision Saban really allowing that, but I would have said the same about Billy Donovan. Regardless, enjoy it fellas, because one things is for certain, it won’t last forever.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 14, 2012 9:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope, it won't.

But I also think there is a real good chance it could last all of Saban’s days and the next coach as well as long as we get the right AD.

And, I think UF being down won’t last forever. But I do think it will last as long as Muschump is there. The guy based on his Alma Mater right after he got to UF. That is not a good coach.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

you may be right

but I’m still going to give him a chance. I do think he will have very very good defenses. Is that enough? Who knows, he certainly has some growing up to do, and Florida and the SEC isn’t really a place known for slowly nurturing a coach to his potential. I still think he can win, but something absolutely has to change on the offense. I HATE YOU CHARLIE WEIS.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 14, 2012 9:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Weis weas called a brilliant hire by WM...that is brilliant!

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 9:41 PM CST up reply actions  

What I would expect was for him (WM) not to hire a Weis

in order to make headlines.

Did he honestly think Weis was the answer?

If so it shows what he knows which is squat.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 10:36 PM CST up reply actions  

whatever

I’m not sure what you want me to say. Good thing Saban’s always nailed the offensive coordinator hire? Do you want me to argue that Weis wasn’t a terrible hire? Anyway, nice chatting….

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 14, 2012 10:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

You could certainly say the same thing about one Major Applewhite. And at least Weis did have those Super Bowl rings to flash around. (Yes, I know they’re annoying to hear about, but still, it’s a lot more than Applewhite had on his resume.)

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 15, 2012 8:22 AM CST up reply actions  

If I can derail this hate (from both sides) train for a minute,

I heard the Zooker on the radio this morning say that he never heard of any Big Tween “gentlemen’s agreement” regarding not recruiting committed players. He said Brett Bielema (of the “We don’t want to be like the SEC in any way” Bielemas) never had a problem with recruiting players who were already committed to Illinois. It was pretty hilarious!

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 15, 2012 8:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Bielema is an idiot

and his offense to Meyer, is nothing more than sour grapes. I really don’t want to see tOSU become some dominant program under Meyer, but I don’t see how it can’t. The conference is just far too easy for someone who can recruit like Meyer can.

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 15, 2012 9:24 AM CST up reply actions  

I hate ohio state.

"Tommy, completions are way more awesome when you force them through triple coverage." ----Brett Farve (look-a-like)

by Aaron.50cal on Feb 15, 2012 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

preach

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 15, 2012 4:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Here it goes,

I hate ohio state…a lot.

"Tommy, completions are way more awesome when you force them through triple coverage." ----Brett Farve (look-a-like)

by Aaron.50cal on Feb 16, 2012 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

that was moving

contributing author - Alligator Army

by Cardsfan25 on Feb 16, 2012 5:11 PM CST up reply actions  

If my message is able to

touch one person then I have done my job.

"Tommy, completions are way more awesome when you force them through triple coverage." ----Brett Farve (look-a-like)

by Aaron.50cal on Feb 17, 2012 7:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Or a tattoo parlor

Attempting to remove humor from posts since August 30, 2011

by JokerBama on Feb 16, 2012 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Or the Columbus PD

who have arrested all his players.

"Tommy, completions are way more awesome when you force them through triple coverage." ----Brett Farve (look-a-like)

by Aaron.50cal on Feb 16, 2012 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

From Spencer Hall:
Saban remains peerless on the defensive side of the ball, so much so that his draft picks have the unique problem of being labeled “system products” on defense.

I have not really heard that, at least not as a negative thing. If anything, I’ve only heard about how well prepared our defenders are for the NFL because of the complex system they’ve already learned.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 14, 2012 2:27 PM CST reply actions  

Agreed.

I seem to remember Ro being quoted as saying that the pro playbook was the same size or smaller than Bama’s.

Further, the “system” tag tends to apply to gimmick systems, a tag I don’t think anyone would place on Saban’s D.

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin

by Slice of Life on Feb 14, 2012 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Also from SH:
Now that he’s slowed down the Adderall job-hopping routine of his youth, the mature Lane Kiffin appears to be the brilliant person the 30 year old Lane Kiffin was supposed to be.

Wait, what? True that Kiffin probably won’t be leaving SC anytime soon (not before he’s forced out), but last time I checked this is still his 3rd job in the last 4 years. At least wait a year or two before claiming that he has reformed his ways.

Also, this makes me want to see Bama destroy the Trojans so bad. Please let it be in Miami next January!

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 14, 2012 2:35 PM CST reply actions  

This is another thing I don't get

the media and such being of belief that USC is going to be a huge threat this year or anytime in the near future. Sure, I get that Barkley will be back, and there most certainly is talent, however, the scholarship reductions are just now starting, and lack of depth will cost them at some pont.

by BamaThrasher on Feb 14, 2012 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Like it or not,

and I don’t, but I’ve got a feeling USC is going to be pretty good.

by Brad Bowen on Feb 14, 2012 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

This year probably, but I have no faith in Lane's ability to take them all the way.

And starting next year, I think the sanctions will start to hurt them.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 14, 2012 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Based on what?

A 3-point win over Oregon?
A triple overtime loss to Stanford?
Or perhaps:
a 2-point win over 3-9 Minnesota?
a 9-point win over 8-5 (4-5) Utah?
a 21-point loss to 6-7 Arizona St.?
a 48-41 victory over 4-8 Arizona?

The only way to make sense of the extensive attention that USC is currently receiving is to note that southern California is the 2nd largest media market in the country, USC has a potential Heisman frontrunner in Barkley, and it would be a huge story if Kiffin could win a national championship in the middle of major NCAA sanctions.

The facts and evidence suggest that USC doesn’t have a chance in hell of winning a national championship.

by toofull on Feb 14, 2012 5:16 PM CST up reply actions  

USC = Easy Path, then Puncher's Chance

No one’s going to have an easier path than USC. The conference is a collection of bad teams and teams starting over. Oregon’s the only team with a shot. USC’s got a 1 game season – except they’re likely to play Oregon twice.

And USC does have enough to take down anyone on any given day if they get past that hurdle.

But I would love to see Lane get run over by an SEC team in the championship game. The risk, of course, would be the possibility of seeing him gloat. That would be nauseating.

by Bocktean on Feb 14, 2012 8:24 PM CST up reply actions  

If USC does not make the BCS game this year it is all on Kiffin

and it will be a sure sign he has not matured.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 8:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Although the team didn’t regress as badly as it had in the 1950s, consistency was elusive. Every Alabama head coach that lead the team onto the football field since Bryant earned at least one 10-win season.

A chance to interject one of my favorite trivia points about Bama football: Since the end of WWI, every Alabama coach except Ears Whitworth had at least one 10-win season in his time in Tuscaloosa.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 14, 2012 2:53 PM CST reply actions  

except for mike price, joe kines and mike shula, of course.

which is why i have to resort to such bizarre sentence constructions when i write about this stuff.

SB Nation's The Historical: Because all those games way back when matter.

by kleph on Feb 14, 2012 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Mike Shula had 10 wins in 2005.

Unless you listen to the NCAA.

I wasn’t trying to correct anything you wrote, just extending it further back in time.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 14, 2012 3:07 PM CST up reply actions  

you are precisely right

it’s just it touches on one of the most difficult aspects of writing about these topics — making sure all the right qualifiers are there to ensure the statement is factually correct.

SB Nation's The Historical: Because all those games way back when matter.

by kleph on Feb 14, 2012 3:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, but

Mike Price is the only Alabama head coach to retire undefeated!

"Difficulties strengthen the mind, as labor does the body."
― Seneca

by NJBammer on Feb 14, 2012 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

allen mccants

begs to differ.

SB Nation's The Historical: Because all those games way back when matter.

by kleph on Feb 14, 2012 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

A couple of points.

First- Very good article.

Second—you said from Bryant to Saban every coach had a 10 win season, but no one was able to do it twice. Well, Stallings had 4 ten win seasons, 91, 92, 94, and 96. His 4 ten win seasons in 7 years, considering we played one less game then, was still in my opinion a very good run.

Third- Alabama has only had one real good coaching transition, that was Wade to Thomas. Not surprisingly Coach Wade was the one who brought Coach Thomas to Alabama.

I think that Bryant wanted to bring Stallings…but was denied. What misery we could have avoided if Stallings had come after Bryant. However, Stallings himself seemed to want Dubose and that was a major mistake.

The bottom line right now is that we need to be sure we get the right guy to replace Whit when he retires. We need to get the right guy to replace Moore. Do those two things and everything else will take care of itself.

However, there is a real good chance Whit, Moore, and Saban will all retire near the same time and that could spell another serious down turn.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 3:19 PM CST reply actions  

Witt

And your statement about them retiring at the same time got me wondering. I didn’t realize it, but he’s 72 years old. So yeah, I doubt he sticks around more than another 4 or 5 years. And I would expect to see Mal step down before that. Hopefully Witt can bring in a good successor for Mal before he retires himself.

I’m still hoping Saban has 10 more good years left. /prays

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 14, 2012 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry don't know why I said Whit not Witt and I've even met the man.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 5:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Every Alabama head coach that lead the team onto the football field since Bryant earned at least one 10-win season. None were able to do it twice until Nick Saban arrived.

Stallings had 4 10 wins seasons.

"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted

by Zoltar on Feb 14, 2012 3:23 PM CST reply actions  

Beat you to it.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

you both got it and the mistake was mine

it was something i meant to go back and re-write but forgot before i hit “enter.”

technically stallings hit double digit wins five times but the ncaa intervened. obviously gene stallings was the only coach who had continued success at alabama between the tenure of bryant and saban. even he had difficulty holding the stratospheric level of expectations when faced with the administrative turmoil.

SB Nation's The Historical: Because all those games way back when matter.

by kleph on Feb 14, 2012 3:31 PM CST up reply actions  

You sure it wasn't four?

I think 50 and I were counting the season with forfeited wins. Anyway, I was looking at his wikipedia article to check and I didn’t realize just how bad his tenure at Texas A&M was. He spent 7 years there with 1 winning season (7-4). Overall he was 27-45-1. Sheesh. Amazing that he lasted 7 seasons.

"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted

by Zoltar on Feb 14, 2012 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

here are the records for stalling's seven seasons

1990: 7-7
1991: 11-1
1992: 13-0
1993: 1-12 (9-3-1 before NCAA ruling)
1994: 12-1
1995: 8-3
1996: 10-3

it was four. i counted up the losses in 1993 forgetting ties still counted back then (the overtime rules changed in 1996).

SB Nation's The Historical: Because all those games way back when matter.

by kleph on Feb 14, 2012 3:50 PM CST up reply actions  

1990 7-5

"The same things win today that have always won, and they will win years from now. The only difference is the losers have a whole new bunch of excuses why they don’t win or can’t win."-Bear Bryant

(12-4)+2=12 hoping for a +1

Robot Chicken Star Wars should be canon.

by the thin red line on Feb 14, 2012 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

at this point

it’s pretty clear i’m not going to get this detail correct no matter what steps i take.

SB Nation's The Historical: Because all those games way back when matter.

by kleph on Feb 14, 2012 4:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Come on Kelph you need to be perfect

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 5:04 PM CST up reply actions  

i'm not kelph.

SB Nation's The Historical: Because all those games way back when matter.

by kleph on Feb 14, 2012 5:10 PM CST up reply actions  

DUN DUN DUNNNN

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin

by Slice of Life on Feb 14, 2012 6:55 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

And I can't spill korectly when I'm talin on the fone

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 14, 2012 8:48 PM CST up reply actions  

kleph

No matter what they say good write up. THANKS!!!

by TideinOklahoma on Feb 14, 2012 5:34 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Regarding the NCAA's 1993 version of Alabama's season:

(clears throat)

F___ the NCAA! Never type the following: “1993: 1-12 due to NCAA ruling.”

PS: F___ the NCAA!

9th January, 2012: Section 101, Row 1, Seat... I'll let y'all spot that one.

"And a crashin' blow from a huge right hand
Sent a Louisiana fellow to the Promised Land"
-- "Big John" by Jimmy Dean

by TiderUpNorth on Feb 15, 2012 1:51 AM CST up reply actions  

Nice job with this, Kleph

Leadership is the key to sustained success and we have very capable people at all important positions at UA. Great read.

"I’d much rather go out to dinner with a communist than an Auburn man." - 5026

by The Good Doc on Feb 14, 2012 3:39 PM CST reply actions  

maybe im less of a homer than most but

i don’t see Bama as a dynasty. I really didn’t see USC as one either. Sure, we are winning a lot of games and have won two NC’s in three years but a true dynasty is measured over time and we simply aren’t there yet. We will probably decline in 2012 but 2013 looks bright. I think what Saban has done so far at Bama is amazing but I don’t care what SI says, we aren’t a dynasty yet.

Now here’s where the homer part comes in… Saban and Bama can be beat. LSU, Auburn and USC proved that in 2010. Utah proved that it in ‘08. The key to beating Alabama under Saban isn’t about schemes or out musceling us. What 2010 proved was that motivation and leadership will kill our season. When our players come into a season like ’08 ’09 or ’11 focused and correctly motivated they have proven to be damn near unstoppable (damn you 9-6). But when they approach the season feeling entitled, not to mention when you are relying on inexperienced players at key positions like 2010 we can lose 3 games.

So I don’t believe a USCw, WVU and certainly not a Boise St threatens Bama’s attempt at a dynasty status. The only way Bama will decline is if the players act as if by merely stepping on the field is all it takes to win. .

Follow on twitter @thelyell
A Hundred Pounds Lost

by bammer on Feb 14, 2012 4:32 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

Entitled vs. Motivated

rises and falls within every season. I don’t think you’ll find a season where entitlement/complacency didn’t poison at least a half dozen quarters of football. And one of the Tide’s most focused and motivated games in the last decade came in the bowl game that capped off a 3-loss season.

But I do agree that part of the equation is huge.

by Bubdylan on Feb 14, 2012 5:35 PM CST up reply actions  

but i think that proves my point even further..

had that team played with the same focus and intensity as it did agaisnt MSU we could be talking about 3 straight titles. Injuries also played a part in ’10 but i think focus was the killer. IMO the 2010 squad was one of the, if the not most talented team Bama has ever had.

Follow on twitter @thelyell
A Hundred Pounds Lost

by bammer on Feb 14, 2012 5:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Good points.

No dynasty yet, but we’re on our way.

"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted

by Zoltar on Feb 14, 2012 5:59 PM CST up reply actions  

When I think of a dynasty, I think of teams that no one thinks should lose ever (i.e. not to anyone).

I don’t really feel like we’ve had that aura of invincibility at any point. But maybe this is just what a dynasty looks like from the inside, i dunno.

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 15, 2012 8:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Good points, all around.

FSU springs most clearly into mind. I remember a very long time where people generally assumed they were going to win every game they played, and that seems now in my mind to have lasted a very long time. That run they had was incredible in its consistency and longevity. To be fair, however, we have as many MNCs in the past three years as they have in their history.

To better address your point, if I remember correctly, wasn’t the 2009 SECCG was the last game in which Vegas picked us to lose?

Fourteen.

by Darth Saban on Feb 15, 2012 11:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Donnie, you're outta yer element!

9th January, 2012: Section 101, Row 1, Seat... I'll let y'all spot that one.

"And a crashin' blow from a huge right hand
Sent a Louisiana fellow to the Promised Land"
-- "Big John" by Jimmy Dean

by TiderUpNorth on Feb 15, 2012 1:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Just watched the youtube clip.

The audio is pretty funny with the guy howling when the bulldogs recovered the fumble.

"Those are just facts and facts are just opinions and opinions can be wrong"
-Veronica, Better Off Ted

by Zoltar on Feb 14, 2012 6:21 PM CST reply actions  

College football is a coach's game . . .

and finding a great coach is as much about timing as anything. If Leigh Tiffin kicks an extra point in Fayetteville, Mike Shula would have held on during the only window in which Nick Saban was available and history would have been much different. Notre Dame has gone 15+ years without a decent coach; USC hired Lane Kiffin for crying out loud; Texas went for decades without one; Florida hired Ron Zook and now an assistant coach. Its tough. Whenever the Saban run comes to an end, we have to hope the good Lord continues to smile on the Tide in terms of the timing of the next coaching search — nothing else you can do. But the Saban run is just cranking up — EDSBS is just hoping against hope its peaked. You combine Saban’s recruiting with his work ethic and the credibility he has with the program (its the school most HS studs want an offer from) and EDSBS is right to be terrified — we could easily be nearer the start than the end of one of the greatest runs in college football history. Just sit back and enjoy because its all gravy now anyway.

by Son of Roaring Dan on Feb 14, 2012 9:40 PM CST reply actions  

One of the best threads ever on RBR

The variety and intelligent responses to this fine article was quite refreshing, maybe b/ I agree with quite a few controversial points ranging from both sides of our debt crisis, the housing bubble, but mostly the ebb and flow of Bama football.
I have to agree with everyone that Dr. Witt has done great things for Alabama, the recruiting of top students in major cities across the country is amazing. He also realizes the success of the football team enhances that, my kids are at one of the top schools in Chicago and they see Alabama t- shirts every day with over a dozen planning on going to Bama next year.
The AD position also matters, I may be in the minority, but I put heavy blame on our sanction issues on Hootie Ingram. He was arrogant with the NCAA, made a bad judgement call in not reporting the Langham incident and if we had simply sat Langham for the 1st 4 games of the next season nothing would have come of it. We can joke about FSU and shoes, but with a better AD we might have gotten the same slap on the wrist.
And of course I do believe Saban is a one of a kind type coach, who I believe we all appreciate. We won 2 MNC when I was in college and now my oldest daughter has done the same. Hopefully the pain of the 10+ years pre-Saban will keep us going once he retires.

Once again great article Kleph and to all of the regular posters, they say Finebaum’s show is made by his callers, but I can’t imagine how much praise this blog would receive if mainstream media followed it.

by simpleman on Feb 15, 2012 7:28 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

my kids are at one of the top schools in Chicago and they see Alabama t- shirts every day

Yep, same thing out in Arizona. ;)

God bless our Dark Lord.

by CarrotTop4 on Feb 15, 2012 8:48 AM CST up reply actions  

the alumni group here in phoenix

has been very active in recruiting students to attend alabama. certainly the visibility of the football program has helped (just as Dr. Denny planned) but the efforts of Dr. Witt have gone very far in making the school a destination for those aspiring for opportunities in academics as well.

SB Nation's The Historical: Because all those games way back when matter.

by kleph on Feb 15, 2012 8:53 AM CST up reply actions  

We will be fine

Sure it is unreasonable to expect the next coach to step right in and have the sucess Saban has had in the first 5 years. But at the end of the day we are still Alabama; an elite level program with pratically unlimited resources. We may experience a drop off; but great porgrams always find a way to get back. Even if it takes several years, we will find a way to suceed.

by RTR1322 on Feb 15, 2012 9:55 AM CST reply actions  

But...we don't need to go through a series of misses

at HC before we settle in on a winner. Our next HC, hopefully in a decade, needs to be a proven winner. Why do you think we got Bryant or Saban? Because they had done it before at several places.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 15, 2012 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Very true, and agreed. But on the other hand...

Gene Stallings’ only prior collegiate head coaching experience had been at his alma mater Texas A&M, where he went 27–45–1, with one winning season.

1965: 3–7 (1–6)
1966: 4–5–1 (4–3)
1967: 7–4 (6–1) (won the SWC, won the Cotton Bowl)
1968: 3–7 (2–5)
1969: 3–7 (2–5)
1970: 2–7 (0–7)
1971: 5–6 (4–3)

To be fair, though, he had also been a hell of an assistant coach at Alabama, at the Dallas Cowboys, and had been the head coach of the St. Louis / Phoenix Cardinals (23-34-1).

Fourteen.

by Darth Saban on Feb 16, 2012 12:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Stallings success at Bama

came as a surprise even to himself. But, you don’t get that lucky all the time.

If Auburn was in New Mexico and we never played them I would still hate them and their dumb coach and their cheating players.

by 5026 on Feb 16, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

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